Boat Hire Legal Question

[Sinewave]

15 hours ago, MJG said:

I only know of one hire boat company on the Ashby who we found to be excellent. When we once hired from them around this time of year they swapped us to a better boat because there was a problem with the boat we had booked, at no cost to us.

The op's reference to the Ashby implies it was a hire from the Ashby boat co., perhaps they could eliminate them from any speculation about the hire co. involved.

The trader was most definitely not Ashby Boat's, As I understand it the trader I am talking about made a few phone calls to see if any other business's could help out as he did not have a duty engineer available. Trinity marina declined, but Ashby Boat Hire said if I made my way up to them they would supply help or at least some kit and advice if they could, Bless them. 

[Sinewave]

17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

This sounds to me as if the domestic batteries were very or completely flat and the alternator warning lamp was somehow energised from the domestic bank so the alternator would not energise until it got fed from the engine battery. Then it energised and close the split charge relay (assuming its a Durite one).

A missing "trigger" wire on the relay would not allow the relay to close by jumping between the engine and domestic positives.

Its all sound very odd to me because the alternator warning lamp is usually ignition switch controlled and that comes from the engine battery  unless for some reason they misunderstand the bit about directing the alternator output to the domestic battery. They could be using a relay from the ignition switch to turn the warning lamp on from the domestic bank but on a  single alternator boat its very odd. That us unless it was a twin alternator boat and they disabled the wrong warning lamp.

All very odd and I can not  fully understand how that fix worked unless it was to do with energising the alternator.

If the boat really did have flat domestic batteries the last thing I would tell a customer to do would be to jump from the engine bank because a very hot cable and burned hands could ensue.

 

By the way Hoseasons is only a booking agent, as far as I am aware they do not own or operate any boats themselves so any fleet could book via Hoseasons if they wished and have Hoseasons badged stuff aboard. If the boat was bought in it would have come from another operator who just happened to book with Hoseasons.

 

Thank you for the info Tony, yes it's possible the boats came from another operator.

Yes I agree the situation with the leisure batteries is very odd, on inspection of the batteries (3 in the leisure bank) 2 looked fairly new and the other looked in good condition, I have only ever seen the manual shunt he applied for the purpose of (shocking) near completely flat older batteries into taking a charge.

As I said I did not have any kit with me so I could not meter the wiring but you could well be right about the alternator being initially excited from the leisure bank, instead of from the start battery, and yes if the leisure bank were near flat a boost from the starter battery would possibly be enough to induce the alternator charge voltage.

The split charger was most definitely an older wired model of the Durite range, round and orange, the give away for it being trigger wire activated was the fact that it had an input terminal and no light to indicate automatic relay operation, the details on the relay itself were unreadable because of its age but Durite's generally energise at somewhere between 13.5 to 14.2 volts I believe, but the problem must have been split charger related because the shunt had to be re-applied at every engine stop and re-start , if the problem was just low charge stopping the excitement of the alternator then surely applying the shunt once and charging the leisure batteries up would have enabled them to supply enough voltage at the next startup      

[Tony Brooks]

44 minutes ago, Sinewave said:

Thank you for the info Tony, yes it's possible the boats came from another operator.

Yes I agree the situation with the leisure batteries is very odd, on inspection of the batteries (3 in the leisure bank) 2 looked fairly new and the other looked in good condition, I have only ever seen the manual shunt he applied for the purpose of (shocking) near completely flat older batteries into taking a charge.

As I said I did not have any kit with me so I could not meter the wiring but you could well be right about the alternator being initially excited from the leisure bank, instead of from the start battery, and yes if the leisure bank were near flat a boost from the starter battery would possibly be enough to induce the alternator charge voltage.

The split charger was most definitely an older wired model of the Durite range, round and orange, the give away for it being trigger wire activated was the fact that it had an input terminal and no light to indicate automatic relay operation, the details on the relay itself were unreadable because of its age but Durite's generally energise at somewhere between 13.5 to 14.2 volts I believe, but the problem must have been split charger related because the shunt had to be re-applied at every engine stop and re-start , if the problem was just low charge stopping the excitement of the alternator then surely applying the shunt once and charging the leisure batteries up would have enabled them to supply enough voltage at the next startup      

Orange and round sounds much more like a VSR to me. Split charge relays tend to be boxlike, the Durite ones especially.  Durite ones tend to be black and Lucas ones blue. Split charge relays do NOT close at a fixed battery voltage, they close when the relay coil is energised. I have had them energise on;y by the warning lamp current and that is after the voltage dropped across the warning lamp.  If the relay energise  wire is fed from the alternator D+ terminal (warning lamp) it may not energise until the alternator starts charging and that may be within the figures you quote but could be less on really flat batteries or more on well charged ones and a modern alternator. VSRs "close" at around 13.6 volts.

A VSR will/should have a thin negative connection in addition to the two main cables. Early ones may have two so you can choose which bank it's monitoring.

Unless the yard comes on to explain what was going on I doubt we will ever find out.

Editd to add

Thinking about it I reckon it could well have been an old bidirectionally VSR  where they ere sensing form the domestic bank and sending the alternator output to the engine bank or over time, the close setting had drifted far too high, but I doubt that.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[Tony Brooks]

If it's not Ashby boat company and I can't see it being Excellence Afloat (ex Valley Cruisers) from Coventry then it only leaves one hire base that might fit the bill unless someone else has started operating on the Ashby. Think Coventry Canal, north of the Ashby and on the same pound.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[Sinewave]

20 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

If it's not Ashby boat company and I can't see it being Excellence Afloat (ex Valley Cruisers) from Coventry then it only leaves one hire base that might fit the bill unless someone else has started operating on the Ashby. Think Coventry Canal, north of the Ashby and on the same pound.

I obviously cannot say to much about the trader at this stage Tony for legal reasons, I also have no wish to do serious damage to the traders hard earned reputation, The trader himself, his ex partner and his boatyard staff are excellent and very nice people to deal with.

I think the weak link in the chain is this one particular engineer, In general conversation with members of the yard staff they give the impression that this engineer is very arrogant and a bit of a know it all, (their words not mine) but on arriving back from our hire period I had the opportunity to speak with him face to face so I took him to task over how he could justify allowing a boat to be hired out to a member of the public knowing that the temporary fix he had made would not last beyond the first engine stop. Did he realise not making a proper repair and not declaring the fact that the hirer would have to keep making this shunt throughout the hire period would, in fact, mean the company would be in Breach of Contract on two counts at least , boat unfit for purpose, not declaring a condition which could affect the customers decision to continue with the hire , He replied he had made the trader and his boat yard staff aware of the situation and claimed it was their fault for turning the boat engine off when he had told them to leave it running , quite what this has to do with the fact he made a poor job of the repair i don't know,

Unfortunately Tony this is only one of several issues which I won't go into at this stage, but after several exchanges with the trader who will not concede he was at fault through his engineer's actions, I have had to take legal action, as he would not agree to mediation/arbitration or supply a letter of deadlock I was left with no other choice.     

[Tam & Di]

1 hour ago, Sinewave said:

The trader himself, his ex partner and his boatyard staff are excellent and very nice people to deal with...............               ..............Unfortunately Tony this is only one of several issues which I won't go into at this stage, but after several exchanges with the trader who will not concede he was at fault through his engineer's actions, I have had to take legal action, as he would not agree to mediation/arbitration or supply a letter of deadlock I was left with no other choice.     

Obviously this is nowt to do with me, but I can't quite understand how those two apparently contradictory statements come into the same post.

It does seem though that your contract for the hire was with the hire company, so I don't see how they can sidestep liability for their engineer's actions (or inactions, as the case may be).

[WotEver]

On 15/02/2018 at 12:17, Athy said:

From your stated itinerary, I can think of only one hire fleet which this could be, and they are generally very well thought of, so perhaps you have just been unlucky.

My thoughts exactly. 

[WotEver]

On 17/02/2018 at 13:29, Sinewave said:

Trinity marina declined...

Just to clear this up, Trinity Marina do not, to the best of my knowledge, in fact have a duty engineer. So they’d not have declined so much as held their hands up and said they didn’t have anyone. 

[Justin Smith]

On ‎15‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 13:03, Naughty Cal said:

We hired several times a year before we bought our own boat and can only think of once when we had a holiday where nothing went wrong during the one or two week hire. Hire boats get a lot of use and will break down. Some things are unavoidable.

We had one boat trash a gearbox on a tidal section of river in the middle of nowhere in mid March. The boat had to be towed to the nearest town which was six miles away. We were then given the option of going back to the yard three days away where we would be given another boat, or letting them fix the boat at the side of the river and lose a days cruising. We opted for the latter. Did we let it ruin our holiday. No. We found stuff to keep us occupied whilst the boat was being fixed.

But then again we don't subscribe to the blame culture and claim culture. We just admit that sometimes stuff happens.

I think hire companies should defn let you keep the boat longer to cover for problems, assuming it`s not booked for the next week and it`s convenient for the hirer.

 

We`ve hired boats every year for the last 10 year plus, to be honest something usually goes wrong, though it`s usually fairly minor. You then have to make the decision if you`re going to contact the boatyard or not because you`ll lose hours off the holiday waiting for them to come out and fix it. That said, what is a "minor fault" ? For instance , boat batteries which are down on power and won`t let you run the heating in the morning without starting the engine ? Is that a minor fault (when it`s cold.......) ?

[cuthound]

21 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

I think hire companies should defn let you keep the boat longer to cover for problems, assuming it`s not booked for the next week and it`s convenient for the hirer.

 

We`ve hired boats every year for the last 10 year plus, to be honest something usually goes wrong, though it`s usually fairly minor. You then have to make the decision if you`re going to contact the boatyard or not because you`ll lose hours off the holiday waiting for them to come out and fix it. That said, what is a "minor fault" ? For instance , boat batteries which are down on power and won`t let you run the heating in the morning without starting the engine ? Is that a minor fault (when it`s cold.......) ?

If you are hiring every year you should consider shared ownership. It will get you more time on a boat per year whilst saving you shedloads of money.

[Sinewave]

Hi Justin/Cuthound

Yes guys I agree, there is always something goes a bit pear shaped with boats, especially hire boats toward the end of a busy season, and yes I tend to not let minor issues ruin what would otherwise have been a great break from work messing around in a boat.

That said though, I draw the line when traders take liberties with our generally good nature, things have moved on a little since I first opened this thread, I have actually took this case through the county court and won by default as the trader did not bother to defend. He also did not bother to honour the courts decision either so have had to send in the bailiffs, now!!! he has bothered alright, He has applied for a set aside to get the CCJ removed and the court has sent me a copy of his evidence, needless to say the trader has moved the goalposts that far he would have been better putting wheels on them, hearing is on 5/4/18 so hopefully a resolution is nigh. 

[john6767]

On 17/02/2018 at 15:22, Tony Brooks said:

If it's not Ashby boat company and I can't see it being Excellence Afloat (ex Valley Cruisers) from Coventry then it only leaves one hire base that might fit the bill unless someone else has started operating on the Ashby. Think Coventry Canal, north of the Ashby and on the same pound.

There is I believe  one hire boat based at the new marina at Market Bosworth, so that is at least one more on the Ashby.

[Naughty Cal]

On 3/31/2018 at 08:38, Justin Smith said:

I think hire companies should defn let you keep the boat longer to cover for problems, assuming it`s not booked for the next week and it`s convenient for the hirer.

 

We`ve hired boats every year for the last 10 year plus, to be honest something usually goes wrong, though it`s usually fairly minor. You then have to make the decision if you`re going to contact the boatyard or not because you`ll lose hours off the holiday waiting for them to come out and fix it. That said, what is a "minor fault" ? For instance , boat batteries which are down on power and won`t let you run the heating in the morning without starting the engine ? Is that a minor fault (when it`s cold.......) ?

We had this on the first morning of our last hire at the back end of last year and we didn't bother ringing the yard. It turned out it was a minor problem as after a good days running they were fine again for the rest of the holiday. It wasn't worth wasting time getting the yard out for batteries. We did however have to get them out when the engine refused to stop.

[Sinewave]

Topic Update

 

As the wife and I have now finally won our case for Breach Of Contract I can now reveal that the traders company name was Excellence Afloat at valley cruises.

 

The problems with the electrical system on the boat were caused by the fact that the leisure batteries were ruined prior to our hire, A subsequent document in the form of an " Engineers pre hire check list" miraculously became available and was submitted by the trader as evidence at the final hearing, this was a bad mistake as the check list clearly displayed the readings taken by the engineer.

 

The reading for the standing voltage of the three leisure batteries ( taken whilst they were still linked in parallel ) was 11.63 volts , the correct term for this reading is the "Open Circuit Voltage".

The trader stated that this reading indicated that the batteries were low of charge, when in fact the reading indicates that the batteries were in a state of heavy discharge , this fact should have been known to a competent marine engineer who; at the very least should have investigated the reason for the discharge prior to the hiring out of the boat.

 

It has been said that a lot of members on this forum have heard nothing but good reports, and read nothing but good reviews about this well thought of trader, I say it depends on where you look.

 

Try an independent review body :      https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g186403-d12512635-Reviews-Coventry_Valley_Cruises-Coventry_West_Midlands_England.html?m=19905

[Guest]

7 reviews is hardly informative.

[Tony Brooks]

I suspect the outfit that used to operate out of Springwood Haven has been broken up and sold off with the hire business being differently owned to the marina and again the candlers and electrical specialist bu its sad when a company with a fair reputation fouls up.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suspect the outfit that used to operate out of Springwood Haven has been broken up and sold off with the hire business being differently owned to the marina and again the candlers and electrical specialist bu its sad when a company with a fair reputation fouls up.

They actually moved to Coventry basin from Springwood ages ago, two possibly three years??

[Athy]

I've just caught up with thsi topic.

Yes, the Wagstaffs who own Springwood Haven sold the Valley Cruises hire operation about three years ago, as MJG says - it may be even longer ago. The company's good reputation was built up under the Wagstaffs' management, helped by the fact that the marina boasts one of the best boat fitters/ mechanics/ whatever I've ever encountered. I don't know anything about the new company.

 

We had a not dissimilar situation during a week's boat hire in June, resulting in our losing a day's cruising time. When we got home I wrote and told them. Lo! and behold, within a couple of weeks a cheque for a £300 refund arrived. So, full marks to Locaboat and to their U.K. agents Blue Water Holidays.

[Guest]

That explains the small number of reviews on trip advisor because the company going as long as it did under previous ownership would have many more than that, and better ones too.

 

They did previously have an excellent reputation as many of us had said, what a shame it doesn't appear to be being kept up.

[Sinewave]

20 hours ago, MJG said:

7 reviews is hardly informative.

Agreed but the example I gave is just one site, However one court case the defendant lost and another almost certainly pending speaks volumes don't you think??.

[Sinewave]

20 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suspect the outfit that used to operate out of Springwood Haven has been broken up and sold off with the hire business being differently owned to the marina and again the candlers and electrical specialist bu its sad when a company with a fair reputation fouls up.

True Tony ,  The circuit judge at Coventry did in fact say that they were breaking corporate law by using the "At Valley Cruises" bit instead of "Excellence Afloat Ltd" . He also advised the trader that it was a legal requirement to add the "Ltd" onto Excellence Afloat, yes I believe you are correct that the Springwood based hire business was sold off.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Sinewave
Incorrect statement

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Sinewave said:

Agreed but the example I gave is just one site, However one court case the defendant lost and another almost certainly pending speaks volumes don't you think??.

Not in the context of your comment about other posters on here endorsing the company. Much if not all of which was based on the previous incarnation not the current one.

 

All the trip advisor comments you linked to appear to relate to the current incarnation not the company people on here were happy to say good things about. Read athy's post above for more clarity.