Generation Decision

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

 

I am not familiar with this incident. But, surely the wife smelled the petrol fumes prior to making such a decision?

 

She must have done but decided to ignore it*. As I said earlier people here expect to be protected from stuff going wrong, to the point they ignore warning signs like this.

 

* I know a boater who has no sense of smell. Terrified of gas leaks as would not know about one. 

[Asia_Off_Grid]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

* I know a boater who has no sense of smell. Terrified of gas leaks as would not know about one. 

Definitely get him / her to purchase and install, a leak detector. 

[Tony Brooks]

28 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to carry out proper research, prior to attempting a proper installation. Hopefully, the party in question will have enough brains to enlist someone else to perform the installation, if he is incapable of doing so. If he doesn't, that's where natural selection, hopefully, comes into the picture. We have enough - err, people, thinning the gene pool as is.

They shouldn't be. Years gone, I personally witnessed a diesel tank explode on a truck that had caught fire. Diesel can be every bit as damaging as petrol. 

Actually I doubt the diesel tank did explode because there is a definition of explosion that details how fast the flame front must travel. If the truck was on fire and heated the tank to vaporisation point I have no doubt it would be very spectacular and noisy, but not an explosion. It is [perfectly safe to put matches and suchlike out in diesel although I would never suggest anyone tries. For diesel to ignite it needs to be warm enough to vaporize and a burning truck could well supply that heat. Petrol vaporizes at well below freezing and a spark an ignite the fumes, two very different liquids.

Unfortunately many years of experience tells me it is very unsafe to assume people have enough brains for anything. I have observed highly educated surgeons behaving like pratts when out fo their specialised field, likewise senior bankers, university professors and so on. A few years in FE will tell you that a significant number of people can not carry out research and if they try they do not apply any critical thinking, they just take it at face value. Hence the half truths and near lies so beloved of advertisers.  This is why posts such as the oen that raised this are so potentially dangerous.

[David Mack]

24 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

Actually, that only applies if it involves foreigners. Locals? It's never their fault. Doesn't matter if it really is their fault. (This is commonplace all over SEA.)

I am not familiar with this incident. But, surely the wife smelled the petrol fumes prior to making such a decision?

Nope. It wasn't petrol fumes that killed them. The petrol genny had an improvise exhaust fitted to connect to a skin fitting. It was made of soldered copper pipe. The genny was left running while the 3 of them took a daytime rest. The hot exhaust melted the solder, the pipework fell apart and carbon monoxide entered the boat. All 3 fell asleep. The chap woke up feeling very groggy. It was too late for the girlfriend and her daughter.

Google for the MAIB report on the Arniston.

Edited February 16, 2018 by David Mack

[TheBiscuits]

11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Nope. It wasn't petrol fumes that killed them. The petrol genny had an improvise exhaust fitted to connect to a skin fitting. It was made of soldered copper pipe. The genny was left running while the 3 of them took a daytime rest. The hot exhaust melted the solder, the pipework fell apart and carbon monoxide entered the boat. All 3 fell asleep. The chap woke up feeling very groggy. It was too late for the girlfriend and her daughter.

Google for the MAIB report on the Arniston.

I think Asia_Off_Grid is discussing the petrol boat and kettle incident mentioned earlier in the thread, not the Arniston.

[Asia_Off_Grid]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Actually I doubt the diesel tank did explode because there is a definition of explosion...

Well, the nearest I could describe it as, was an explosion. Took it a while, though, until the truck had already become fully engulfed in the flames and heat. Some of the wheels were launched from their hubs like projectiles. Had I not witnessed it, I don't think I would have believed it.

 

[WotEver]

30 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is [perfectly safe to put matches and suchlike out in diesel although I would never suggest anyone tries.

I’ve mentioned here before that in my late teens I spent a stint one summer operating the diesel powered glider winch at a gliding club in the Midlands. If I operated it all day I’d get a free flight at some point. The chequer plate floor of the winch was awash with diesel and nobody thought anything of stubbing their ciggies out in it. It sizzled out just as it would in a puddle of water. 

[WotEver]

28 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

Some of the wheels were launched from their hubs like projectiles.

That’s quite common as the tyre inflates to several times its working pressure due to the hot air expanding. There’s a video on YouTube somewhere which shows how violently a truck tyre will explode when over-inflated. 

[Paul C]

I know others have touched upon it, but really its a pretty basic concept, that you'd need relevant information (in the form of a reasonably accurate power audit) before making decisions, especially if those decisions involve spending a fair amount of money or making essentially irreversible modifications to the boat. This is also why I have always recommended an amp-hour counting battery monitor over a smartgauge (even before the alleged quality slips and miscalibration etc now mean that a smartgauge bought today isn't quite the same as previously). An amp hour counter......has an ammeter. This means you can accurately measure the current usage of any electrical device on the boat (just turn off other devices and run the one you're measuring...) If it isn't on all the time (eg fridge, laptop) then you can do the same over a period of time, or make an estimated guess on its running time or duty cycle etc.

Only once you have reasonably accurate info, can you make a decision which will "do the job" but not be overspecified (and thus, cost more than it needed to). 

Also, your list of generation options.....option 2 isn't generation, its storage....yes its a factor but its different and its not generation. The world's best storage technology won't help you if you generate less than you consume!

Personally, I think you'd be an idiot not to have solar power (for the summertime, and a good portion of spring and autumn too). And, an idiot to rely on solar all year round - so some other kind of generation is necessary. Nothing wrong with using the boat engine for this in lieu of a separate generator, whether you choose to buy a travelpower or "DIY" the generation of mains via a decent alternator, (a decent battery bank in between to not tie you to engine running and cope with peaks etc) and a decent inverter is dependent on whether you need mains power when you can't run the engine. There's enough "little" things which need a little bit of mains power, to mean that some kind of inverter is always going to be very useful - for example a battery charger for a camera battery. Fanny around for ages and spend £30 trying to cobble up a charger which converts 12V to the camera battery voltage? Or just fit a 150W inverter for £30 or so.... We ran a 2 inverter setup on our boat - a big one for the microwave, and a little one for everything else. It was not especially complicated, wasn't excessively costly, yes it needed a bit of unplugging etc to switch them over, no we never tried to run the microwave off the 150W inverter, yes we accidentally left the big inverter on and its quiesecent current munched up some battery overnight, yes we sometimes deliberately left the little inverter on overnight and the batteries were fine with this etc etc

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, Paul C said:

This is also why I have always recommended an amp-hour counting battery monitor over a smartgauge

They’re entirely different tools, performing different jobs. A five quid ammeter reads current, you don’t need to spend extra on an Ah counter just to achieve that. 

[Asia_Off_Grid]

43 minutes ago, WotEver said:

That’s quite common as the tyre inflates to several times its working pressure due to the hot air expanding. There’s a video on YouTube somewhere which shows how violently a truck tyre will explode when over-inflated. 

This was the tire and wheel assembly, that flew off the hub, bolts destroyed in the process. Truly, an amazing thing to witness.

Anyway, thanks to those for the corrections to my advice.

[WotEver]

Just now, Asia_Off_Grid said:

This was the tire and wheel assembly, that flew off the hub, bolts destroyed in the process. Truly, an amazing thing to witness.

Yep. That’s how violently a truck tyre explodes. 

[Tony Brooks]

Especially split rim truck types. Used to kill a few people every year in the UK before it was mandatory to do the initial inflation in a cage and people learned to stand well to one side.

[Asia_Off_Grid]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Especially split rim truck types. Used to kill a few people every year in the UK before it was mandatory to do the initial inflation in a cage and people learned to stand well to one side.

When I was a young man, we inflated split rims to about 25 - 30 psi. If they had not seated by that pressure range, it was time to release all air and start over.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Especially split rim truck types. Used to kill a few people every year in the UK before it was mandatory to do the initial inflation in a cage and people learned to stand well to one side.

I have split-rims on one of my tractors - but at only 20psi its not a huge risk.

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

They’re entirely different tools, performing different jobs. A five quid ammeter reads current, you don’t need to spend extra on an Ah counter just to achieve that. 

I've had terrible luck with £5 ammeters. Do you have any links to this type of product? I would be interested in its (display) accuracy, range and other pertinant parameters.

I think its a bit unfair to say a smartgauge and and an amp-hour counting battery monitor "perform different jobs". Yes, they are different, and its important to appreciate the underlying science behind how they work (and thus their limitations) but to a boater who wants to keep a slightly closer eye on their batteries than "voltmeter's in the green, its okay" they are essentially competing for that boater's money. Few people fit both, for example (I'll concede that often, smartgauge owners go on to purchase an ammeter of some kind though).

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Paul C said:

(I'll concede that often, smartgauge owners go on to purchase an ammeter of some kind though).

They do need to, to make the best of the SG and their batteries.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

I'll concede that often, smartgauge owners go on to purchase an ammeter of some kind though

They need to. Unless they really love taking multiple relative density readings daily. 

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Paul C said:

I've had terrible luck with £5 ammeters. Do you have any links to this type of product?

I bought a couple of these about 18 months back just to play with and they were both within one decimal point which is plenty good enough for this type of usage.

The biggest problem is how to mount the shunt  

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/200V-200A-DC-Digital-LED-Voltmeter-Ammeter-Amp-Volt-Meter-200A-shunt-12v-24v/111614232098?hash=item19fcba0622:g:oP0AAOSwqu9U-IkM

[Paul C]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I bought a couple of these about 18 months back just to play with and they were both within one decimal point which is plenty good enough for this type of usage.

The biggest problem is how to mount the shunt  

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/200V-200A-DC-Digital-LED-Voltmeter-Ammeter-Amp-Volt-Meter-200A-shunt-12v-24v/111614232098?hash=item19fcba0622:g:oP0AAOSwqu9U-IkM

Does it work both ways?

[WotEver]

Just now, Paul C said:

Does it work both ways?

No, that’s why I bought two. I wired the shunt the other way on one of them. So one shows charge, the other shows discharge. I didn’t install them on a boat, just played with them on the bench. 

[cuthound]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The big difference is petrol vapour goes bang - diesel doesn't.

 

Exactly. When i was was working I project managed the installation of hundreds of diesel engined standby generating sets and a few spark ignition ones (running on natural gas or methane).

Those installed in London came under the scope of section 20 of the London Building Regulations. This required the Local Authority Fire Officer to approve the design of the fuel installation and upon completion inspect it for compliance.

Most wanted a weight operated valve, held open by a fusible link, in the fuel line between the day tank and the diesel engine. In the event of a fire, the fusible link melts, the valve opens and the diesel fuel in the day tank is drained back to the bulk tank, located in a seperate room. This removes diesel fuel from generator room in the event of a fire.

A couple of Fire Officers however insisted that the day tank be left full in the event of a fire, wrongly believing that the empty day tank posed a greater risk than few hundred litres of diesel in a burning room.

Edited February 16, 2018 by cuthound

[cuthound]

 Duplicate post removed.

Edited February 16, 2018 by cuthound
Duplicate post

[peterboat]

I used to work for Uniloads delivering vehicles, one day I was delivering an IVECO to Whale tankers unfortunately it caught fire with a serious fuel leak! By the time the fire brigade arrived it was full ablaze two of the tyres exploded and so did the fuel tank! the explosion was big enough to blow the cab off it!! I did make the news that night

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I used to work for Uniloads delivering vehicles, one day I was delivering an IVECO to Whale tankers unfortunately it caught fire with a serious fuel leak! By the time the fire brigade arrived it was full ablaze two of the tyres exploded and so did the fuel tank! the explosion was big enough to blow the cab off it!! I did make the news that night

"You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!"