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Generation Decision


DasDsm

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don't understand the point of this. Surely it is better to discharge to 50%-ish, as recharging is quicker. 

I mean putting 200AH back into a 400AH bank is going to be quicker than putting 200AH back into an 800AH back Shirley, as more time will be spent in bulk charging and less in absorption.

Mike, Tony has answered the second part. He has explained this before and I find it difficult to get my head around. Dont forget when the batteries are 95% charged, the bigger bank will be absorping more power ie if a bank of 3 batteries is taking 2A each so 6A total, a bank of 6 batteries will be taking 12A total. Tony can explain in more detail.

For me the no brainer is a comparing 3 *110Ahr bank vs a 6*110 bank (which is what we have). On the first on if you use 160 Ahrs overnight you are down to 50%. On the bigger bank you are down to 75%. For 50% DoD you are say looking at 300 cycles. For 75% you are looking at more than 600 cycles - obviously varies battery to battery. The DoD vs cycles curve gets steeper at lower discharges (I think!!!!) so if you are like us and going down by 100Ahrs overnight you are only in the 15% DoD rather than 30% which will last more than twice as long - offsetting the initial cost of buying double the number (ignoring cost of capital). For me though, I reckon ....but with zero proof.... that a bigger bank will survive the mornings Nesspresso runs far better than a smaller bank.....hence far happier to spend on a bigger bank. I spent 3 years living with 400Ahrs and it just wasnt enough. I would prefer 1000Ahrs and may go to 8*110's next time if Lithiums arent proven by then.

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19 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I spent 3 years living with 400Ahrs and it just wasnt enough. I would prefer 1000Ahrs and may go to 8*110's next time if Lithiums arent proven by then.

We had good results from 8 x 120ah AGMs despite nearly wrecking them initially through too low a charging voltage. 

ETA: Our first set of 8 cheapo leisures lasted 2 years despite some abuse, I thought, naively, they had not done very well but in retrospect they weren't too bad. 

Edited by nb Innisfree
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3 hours ago, Dave_P said:

 

3 hours ago, Dave_P said:

 

3 hours ago, Dave_P said:

 

An earlier poster on this thread discounted portable gennies, but I totally disagree.  If you have the funds and space for a cocooned diesel genny, then fine, but otherwise a portable will take all the wear and tear off your engine, and, importantly, give you another way of charging your batteries. 

So where do you keep a portable genny and can of petrol when they are not in use?

Where do you put the engine when it is running so you don't fill the cabin with carbon monoxide/suffer a huge amount of noise/impose noise on your neighbours/offer easy pickings for the local scroats?

And if you commute to work when can you actually run the thing legitimately?

Edited by David Mack
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8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So where do you keep a portable genny and can of petrol when they are not in use?

Where do you put the engine when it is running so you don't fill the cabin with carbon monoxide/suffer a huge amount of noise/impose noise on your neighbours/offer easy pickings for the local scroats?

And if you commute to work when can you actually run the thing legitimately?

We used a Kipor 2kva inverter gen, usually as a weekly 8hr absorption charge, to equalise batts after a week of bulk only charges, ran quietly on tickover and used 1.9 litres of petrol. Could be done weekends. We filled the tank half full and ran it dry so able to store it in engine bay, petrol kept in 2nd gas locker. 

ETA: Ran it on towpath downwind.

Edited by nb Innisfree
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50 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Tony has answered the second part. He has explained this before and I find it difficult to get my head around.

It’s simple really. Look at any manufacturer’s charging curve and you will see (nominally) bulk up to say 75-90%, absorption from that point up to 100%. See fig 6 in the Trojan pdf below. 

That curve doesn’t change if you have two, three, or ten batteries assuming that you also scale the charger to suit. If you only have a tiny charger then you’ll take longer to get to absorption and at an extreme example you would never get there  

http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

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1 hour ago, DasDsm said:

Ah thanks for that Robbo, had not noticed that about the Relion so will check that again as they are the most keenly priced of the Lifepo4 manufacturers. 

The Mastervolt batteries are eye wateringly expensive when compared to the other brands too. 

You may find this Relion battery manual useful as well.

http://manual-guide.com/manu/11401/index.html

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On 2/14/2018 at 17:50, DasDsm said:

Due to work commitments we have a bit more of a reliance on 240v power so need to at least have a good store or be able to generate it easily.

What sort of loads are you looking to run off 240V?

Running the short term heavy 240V loads straight off a genny or Travelpower, in winter at least, should be far less problematic than running a large charger/batt bank/inverter combination. But a winter mooring with shoreline has got to be the best option.

Edited by smileypete
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In a nutshell from many years of experience.

Solar is fantastic fit it anyway but the truth is on a rainy February day an eco fan would make more power.

Portable gennies have their use but are a pain in the arse.

Travel powers are awesome bits of kit we have one on this boat and on a previous boat and use it to do all heavy work we know consider it a must have bit of kit.

So Set up with TP, solar and some from the engine as and when needed.

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6 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Solar is fantastic fit it anyway but the truth is on a rainy February day an eco fan would make more power.

 

 

I'm not sure about that. Yesterday my 560W of solar was punching a whole 0.1A. 

FAR more than my Ecofan.

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Where we live, we rely on solar, petrol generators, and mains power, in that order. (Our mains bill is typically less than £15 monthly, and frequently less than £8.)

For times when sun isn't shining enough to generate enough solar power (fairly often, in the UK?), or when (shoreline) mains isn't available, a Honda Inverter would provide enough power for most daily needs? You could pipe the exhaust out of the boat, thus leaving the generator mounted in a specific location.

Personally, I have two, 2000 watt Honda Inverter gensets. I purchased both early last year. They are the single best financial investment I have made in a long time. They run reliably (generating clean, constant, pure sign wave voltage). They are very quiet, and they are quite economical to run. I can run one, or both synchronized together if more power is needed. 

Lastly, there are YouTube videos online, offering a number of different ways to add external petrol tanks, thus allowing extended run times.

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44 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

Where we live, we rely on solar, petrol generators, and mains power, in that order. (Our mains bill is typically less than £15 monthly, and frequently less than £8.)

For times when sun isn't shining enough to generate enough solar power (fairly often, in the UK?), or when (shoreline) mains isn't available, a Honda Inverter would provide enough power for most daily needs? You could pipe the exhaust out of the boat, thus leaving the generator mounted in a specific location.

Personally, I have two, 2000 watt Honda Inverter gensets. I purchased both early last year. They are the single best financial investment I have made in a long time. They run reliably (generating clean, constant, pure sign wave voltage). They are very quiet, and they are quite economical to run. I can run one, or both synchronized together if more power is needed. 

Lastly, there are YouTube videos online, offering a number of different ways to add external petrol tanks, thus allowing extended run times.

To all of our less experienced members.

Be very wary of the advice in the above post. Asia_Off_Grid does not seem to have considered the Boat Safety Scheme inspection and requirements or potential insurance ramifications. The part in red is highly dangerous as shown by the chap who did just that up in the lake district and killed his wife and I think daughter with CO gas.

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44 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

For times when sun isn't shining enough to generate enough solar power (fairly often, in the UK?), or when (shoreline) mains isn't available, a Honda Inverter would provide enough power for most daily needs? You could pipe the exhaust out of the boat, thus leaving the generator mounted in a specific location.

There are serious implications with this suggestion, the primary one being the BSSC requirements, and probably least of all the fact that it would not be complaint with the manufacturers fitting requirements,

I recently posted (on this forum) a list of CO deaths on boats caused by (primarily) petrol generators - it average about one per year.

There are reasons why a 'proper fitted boat generator' will cost around £10,000.

Edit to add :

Cross posted with Tony - but at least we agree !!

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If you have a safe store for petrol and if you have a safe store for generator when empty ( remember folks empty  petrol tanks are really really explosive ) and if you run the generator away from the the boat and if you don't mind the noise and if you refuel safely and if no one trips over the lead the insurance won't cover you if you make a claim because it wasn't secured to the boat when it walks off.

saw a generator stolen off a pair of boats in transit through Camden lock once  the thief saw it on the roof jumped down when the roofs were level with lockside picked it up over the other boat and gone...

If your going to have one eliminate petrol

Far too many ifs...

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Be very wary of the advice in the above post. Asia_Off_Grid does not seem to have considered the Boat Safety Scheme inspection and requirements or potential insurance ramifications. The part in red is highly dangerous as shown by the chap who did just that up in the lake district and killed his wife and I think daughter with CO gas.

Fair enough, regarding my ignorance of boating regulations in the U.K. 

With that said, it takes very little to properly ventilate a genset, almost anywhere. That guy must have not properly installed the genset, prior to running it. And, do you not have petrol powered engines on any boats in the U.K.? 

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9 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

Fair enough, regarding my ignorance of boating regulations in the U.K. 

With that said, it takes very little to properly ventilate a genset, almost anywhere. That guy must have not properly installed the genset, prior to running it. And, do you not have petrol powered engines on any boats in the U.K.? 

Hi

Yes we do have PROPERLY fitted and maintained petrol engines in boats although to very many as diesel is preferred. Solar in the UK in winter is useless it may well be ok in third world countries with plenty of sun!! Petrol running costs in the uk mean its a much better option generaly to just run the boats diesel engine all things considered. Keep em coming though its great banter :cheers:

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2 hours ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

Lastly, there are YouTube videos online, offering a number of different ways to add external petrol tanks, thus allowing extended run times.

 

This bit is also rather terrifying too. 

Any thing to do with petrol on a boat is Bad News, and DIYers running petrol lines is almost as terrifying as them DIY extending their portable genrator exhausts. 

I suppose it's a clash of cultures. The UK is so very much more safty-conscious than much of Asia.

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23 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

And, do you not have petrol powered engines on any boats in the U.K.? 

Yes - and the quad-annually safety checks are much more involved and severe than those with a diesel engine.

Petrol is also almost non-existent on the canal system as 'nobody' uses it. Anyone with a petrol engine or petrol generator has to moor up and walk to the nearest service station.

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Any thing to do with petrol on a boat is Bad News, and DIYers running petrol lines is almost as terrifying as them DIY extending their portable genrator exhausts. 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to carry out proper research, prior to attempting a proper installation. Hopefully, the party in question will have enough brains to enlist someone else to perform the installation, if he is incapable of doing so. If he doesn't, that's where natural selection, hopefully, comes into the picture. We have enough - err, people, thinning the gene pool as is.

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I suppose it's a clash of cultures. The UK is so very much more safty-conscious than much of Asia.

Mate, truer words have probably never been spoken. 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes - and the quad-annually safety checks are much more involved and severe than those with a diesel engine.

They shouldn't be. Years gone, I personally witnessed a diesel tank explode on a truck that had caught fire. Diesel can be every bit as damaging as petrol. 

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1 minute ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to carry out proper research, prior to attempting a proper installation. Hopefully, the party in question will have enough brains to enlist someone else to perform the installation, if he is incapable of doing so. If he doesn't, that's where natural selection, hopefully, comes into the picture. We have enough - err, people, thinning the gene pool as is.

 

The thing I notice here with our ever-escalating demands for complete safety is people DON'T bother to carry out the proper research you correctly advise. They cars virtually never blow up and so they lose their respect for petrol ("its only a bit of petrol, innit, what harm can that do", I've heard said) and they expect everything sold to them to have been made idiot-proof and 100% safe. Same applies to gas. Technical people generally have respect but here there are plenty the gene pool could do without but get protected by our stringent safety laws and 'zero risk' attitudes. 

And if something does go wrong and someone gets injured or dies, we here all start looking around for someone to blame and to sue. I doubt that happens where you are!

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5 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to carry out proper research, prior to attempting a proper installation. Hopefully, the party in question will have enough brains to enlist someone else to perform the installation, if he is incapable of doing so. If he doesn't, that's where natural selection, hopefully, comes into the picture. We have enough - err, people, thinning the gene pool as is.

The incident Alan referred to in the Lake District was caused by a registered Gas Safe engineer.  He was sentenced for manslaughter because he of all people should have known better. 

He survived, his girlfriend and her daughter died.  That's thinning the wrong genes. 

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4 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

They shouldn't be. Years gone, I personally witnessed a diesel tank explode on a truck that had caught fire. Diesel can be every bit as damaging as petrol

The big difference is petrol vapour goes bang - diesel doesn't.

A petrol engine boat HAD BEEN refuelled at the local marina, so the 'wife' started boiling the kettle, next thing - the boat explodes and the refuelling pontoon and pumps are in flames.

Related image

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11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And if something does go wrong and someone gets injured or dies, we here all start looking around for someone to blame and to sue. I doubt that happens where you are

In Phnom Penn accidental death is an almost daily event - if there is a fatality following a traffic accident it is not uncommon for the body to be propped upright and witnesses have their photographs taken with it.

If driving thru PP with a Range Rover in front of you and a big Mercedes behind you, keep 'your head down' as they are likely to be driven by mafia / organised crime bosses and you will regularly be caught in the middle of a shoot-out.

If only driving for a 'few hundred yards' it is alright to drive the wrong way down a dual-carriageway.

By law headlights must be on during daylight hours but there is no law saying they must be used at night.

The Police are poorly paid and have to 'purchase' their 'beat' from the CO - they will set up position on a street corner and wait for a 'white-driver' to come past, flag them down and demand money for some invented infringement - when you pull into the kerb, the recommended action is to wait for the Policeman to come around to the drivers side, then drive off.

I hate city driving in the UK - PP Frightened the be-jeepers out of me the 1st time.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And if something does go wrong and someone gets injured or dies, we here all start looking around for someone to blame and to sue. I doubt that happens where you are!

Actually, that only applies if it involves foreigners. Locals? It's never their fault. Doesn't matter if it really is their fault. (This is commonplace all over SEA.)

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A petrol engine boat HAD BEEN refuelled at the local marina, so the 'wife' started boiling the kettle, next thing - the boat explodes and the refuelling pontoon and pumps are in flames.

I am not familiar with this incident. But, surely the wife smelled the petrol fumes prior to making such a decision?

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1 minute ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

Actually, that only applies if it involves foreigners. Locals? It's never their fault. Doesn't matter if it really is their fault. (This is commonplace all over SEA.)

As you probably know one of the most common modes of transport 'in the country' is a ride-on rotavator - my Son (driving on the main PP to Kep road) had one pull out of a small side road about 20 yards in front of him, absolutely nothing he could do to avoid it.

Suddenly dozens of locals appeared and it was all Sons' fault. I think it ended up he gave them $100 escaped with his life and drove off.

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