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Buying a boat ?...Cautionary tales..BEWARE !!


Bobbybass

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The boat market is somewhat unique, boats are full of variables and a 10 year old boat can have more and worse problems than a 20 year old boat - and a 50 year old boat can be better than both having had 2 new bottoms and a recent refit. Doesn't happen with, for example, cars. A first time boat owner can be spending a small fortune and know practically nothing about boats, this is a bad position to be in. A lot of surveyors are, frankly, also lacking real experience. I have sympathy with surveyors, boats now are full of stuff that is of unknown condition, full of wiring, much of it hidden, full of pumps in loos, heating, plumbing, batteries, charging systems, all sorts. Arguably though a hull survey is the important bit. If the thing is out of the water then the buyer / owner really should be able to tell by looking whether it is a nasty, scabby, pitted, unpainted mess and if the bits beneath the floor look much the same then the thing is 3, 4, 5, out of 10. Poor welds, iffy sterngear, that does need more skill. Engines?  Like buying a car, You can't really know till you've owned it a while. BUT, see it out of the water, crawl under it, scrape some rust off it, think of it as a 10 year old skip, poke it, look over the surveyors shoulder. It might be yours soon so get to know all the scabby bits.

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I am in the process of buying an 81 year old ex-working boat, and (gasp) I am buying without a survey. I am buying this boat because I like it and I want it. I am not interested in the investment potential or the opinion of a surveyor, and I will take on each problem as it arises. I believe I am getting this boat for a reasonable price so I can spend a fair amount in improvements, and if it needs a new bottom it will get one (unlikely as it was re-bottomed in 2003), and if it sinks I will raise it again.

It strikes me from this thread that prospective boat owners want something as cheap as possible but also want to defer their risk. Mild steel boats sat in water is never going to be a good combination, and improved water quality with more free oxygen so encouraging corrosion is not going to help (metal hulled boats used to wear out but now they corrode instead) :captain: 

edit = my words relate to metal hull condition. Modern fixtures and fittings mean little to me (hence my interest in simple old working boats), but engines are engines whether in a car or a boat the buying principles are all the same. 

Edited by pete harrison
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Pete . You are lucky that the insurance people don’t insist on a report before insuring. My 100 year old barge needs a hull survey every 7 years for the insurance company which has always been an ultrasound one and I have been pleased with all of them so far although it’s always a thought that they have to find something for the yard to do.

David

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2 hours ago, Mr Norman said:

I too had problems with a surveyor a few years back. Completely missed a whole area of significant rot in the wooden topsides. This was discovered by the company who were carrying out a wholesale renovation of all the topsides recommended by said survey.

I understand you to say your surveyor recommended a wholesale renovation of all the topsides. But first you say that the surveyor missed a whole area of significant rot in the wooden topsides. How did that happen if he went on to recommend a wholesale renovation of all the topsides?  Merely trying to understand.

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All i ever expected was hull thickness readings from our full survey.

Wiring/water pipes and gas piping would need a complete strip down of a boat.

A full out of water survey is only an opinion, that the boat might be afloat next week.

Saying that a basic hull survey something I would always do just for thickness insurance testing. 4mm. < I think.

 

Edit to add: who the bloody he'll knows where the tester places the steel thickness tester misses the ROT HOLE.?

 

blimey...

Night night puts my life jacket over my PJ's. Lol

 

 

Edited by brassedoff
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14 minutes ago, brassedoff said:

All i ever expected was hull thickness readings from our full survey.

[snip]

Edit to add: who the bloody he'll knows where the tester places the steel thickness tester misses the ROT HOLE.?

That is the point of a *good* surveyor.

A trained eye know what looks suspicious, so that's where they tap with the hammer.

Where they do not like the sound from the tapping with a trained ear gets a chalk mark.

The chalk marks - and other random bits - then get the scrape and ultrasound.

Our last surveyor also pointed out that when his *good* ultrasound machine broke he bought an £80 ebay one.

He has considered using the ebay one as a hammer because it's more accurate that way than if you use it properly.

He got his proper one fixed!

 

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4 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Just to offer the other side of this.

Our pre-purchase survey was done by a surveyor we picked who wasn't on the broker's list.  It's a 1980's boat, so needed at least a hull survey for insurance due to it's age.

Points he raised in his verbal report knocked thousands off the agreed "subject to survey" price.  All of it was stuff we had noticed ourselves, but the broker and vendor were more amenable to his report than our haggling.

Choose a good surveyor who knows their stuff, not one suggested by anyone with an interest in the sale.

 

Similar experience although with a surveyor on the brokers list. He identified £2000 worth of faults so we knocked £1000 off the agreed value. We would not have got that money off without the surveyors report so we saved circa £300 after paying the surveyors report/lift out.

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Just now, Dr Bob said:

Similar experience although with a surveyor on the brokers list. He identified £2000 worth of faults so we knocked £1000 off the agreed value. We would not have got that money off without the surveyors report so we saved circa £300 after paying the surveyors report/lift out.

You could have got another 200 knocked off due to no smartgauge or ecofan installed. 

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1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

That is the point of a *good* surveyor.

A trained eye know what looks suspicious, so that's where they tap with the hammer.

Where they do not like the sound from the tapping with a trained ear gets a chalk mark.

The chalk marks - and other random bits - then get the scrape and ultrasound.

Our last surveyor also pointed out that when his *good* ultrasound machine broke he bought an £80 ebay one.

He has considered using the ebay one as a hammer because it's more accurate that way than if you use it properly.

He got his proper one fixed!

 

OMG are you an undertaker ?

Your post comes across a a slow doomy walk. Lol 

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11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Is there a problem with Smartgauges then? What is it? Got a link? 

:giggles:

Tis an endless chain with many links which just keeps going round and round. It's a MTB CHAIN. 

 

2eedd0e5-5ef0-4a5d-be8e-46a8a2a58de6.jpg

Edited by rusty69
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46 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

No, I said I wasn't aware how bad they are. I don't know how bad they are. I am lacking the information to make a true assessment. 

Well....I think you've all done quite well. 

Most of the replies...stayed on my original topic..but now we're on to Smart gauges,

I was waiting for Brexit to appear....   :D

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There is a world of difference between a good surveyor and a bad one.

As with anything it is a case of buyer beware when buying a boat. Never use a surveyor off the brokers pet list and never trust a survey carried out for the current owner.

Our boat was only 5 years old when we bought it yet the surveyor we used found items that needed fixing that saved us far more then the £500 cost of the survey off the prive of the boat. In the end we got £2k off the price plus as the boat was a stock boat we got the other items fixed. Had we not had the survey carried out we would have been circa £5k out of pocket to get everything fixed.

We know which surveyor we will use for future purposes but we hope to god he does not survey our boat for any prospective purchasers as he is very thorough :wacko:

 

 

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We had an offer accepted £9k below the asking price, which was £23k below the original listing price.  There is no way the seller would entertain knocking anything else of post survey (unless there were serious issues, in which case we would walk anyway).  A lesson learnt too late for us.

So just pointing out that having a survey with "if they pick things up I can re-negotiate on the price" (thus potentially saving the survey cost) is not a given.

Your power to negotiate post survey needs to be considered alongside your pre-survey negotiation success.

 

Edited by kawaton
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1 minute ago, kawaton said:

So just pointing out that having a survey with "if they pick things up I can re-negotiate on the price" (thus potentially saving the survey cost) is not a given.

Indeed it is not - I have bought / sold on average a boat every 18-24 months and my selling price is what I am prepared to accept - I may give the buyer a bit of 'luck' at handover, but the price is not negotiable.

If you intend to beat me down following a survey then don't waste your money - the boat is priced to sell, and if you don't want it there are plenty of others who will.

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I think there might be some " Tim & Pru " effect involved  .  Just my own cynical view mind you . It seems to me that boats are being somewhat overpriced , if not very .. Some asking prices nearer to the capital , are shocking . I also get the impression there is a good market of buyers - those who are retired & have spent too much time watching a pair of fogeys on telly & being swept up in the " romance " of waterway life , either as a liveaboard or a marina moorer holiday boater possibly using a lump of thier state pension ? Another type of buyer might be someone looking for a home due to housing costs . Then if course theres everyone inbetween including experienced boaters . The two types of buyer i mention are , it seems to me , a newish breed of buyer & the " rush " to get aflloat asap  could lead to poor judgement . I dunno - im theorising . A boat advertised with " recent survey " & " full inventory onboard , ready to sail away " etc can make folk go " oh lets buy it dahhhlling ... its perfect ! Look at shiny taps & laminate flooring - ohh corian worktops .. etc etc etc " . 

Combined with brokers and thier " we cant get our hands on boats quick enuff blah blah " it can make buyers think " if we don t move quick it could be gone next week " . I get the impression boats are being snapped up quickly when they come on the market , often at prices i find astonishing . 

Sometimes i look on Whiltons website and it seems to be that every other boat is under offer and i think " Jesus , whos buying these overpriced boats !?" . My guess is its a buyer whos looking to " live the dream " ( how i hate that phrase ) or take it to hackney and " live the nightmare " . Inexperienced ( potentially ) buyers , some perhaps wearing rose tinted specs . 

Therefore some sellers will be looking to mug punters and if boats are selling fast then its boom time for surveyors aswell . Like any trade , there will be an element of dishonesty aswell the more professional . 

I considered selling my current boat ( still umming & ahhing over it ) but will probably just keep it & make improvements as im not sure i can be bothered to get involved traipsing around the Uk and organising surveys at £600 - £800 a time . I trust my boat - its rarely let me down & so why bother ? 

My boat is a Liverpool 58 ft Trad ( of the correct beam ) From what i understand brokers can sell them quickly as the market want then because theyre not silly money and are just solid boats that can get folk on the water at reasonable cost ..... BUT when i see on the duck some of prices folk want for thier Liverpools & compare it to what i paid 5 years ago it shocks me so thats why i think that already high selling prices encourage potential buyers to accept " recent surveys " as a means of saving money & getting afloat quicker .

What does my head in the most tho is the term " recent survey ". Its totally meaningless when u consider a survey is only valid on the day it is carried out . A survuy could be a fortnight old but as far the surveyor goes , its already out of date &  theres no comeback for the buyer if they find faults . Using a surveyors own definition a recent survey should be no older than 24 hours . Beyond 24 hours the written report is kindling . 

I used a surveyor .  I trusted him . The boats report was a good one . I negotiated 8K off the asking price plus another £300 on the day due to gas issues . I talked beforehand with the seller over a cuppa & asked about thier ownership of the boat , looked at the file of receipts etc , asked why they were selling & trusted my instincts that all was ok , so i made an offer . Im not knowledgeable enuff to forego a surveyer & i would use one again but never from a brokers list and would never trust a recent survey , though i might use it to determine whether i go ahead & commission my own .

Just thoughts ... mostly cynical 

cheers

Edited by chubby
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18 hours ago, kawaton said:

We had an offer accepted £9k below the asking price, which was £23k below the original listing price.  There is no way the seller would entertain knocking anything else of post survey (unless there were serious issues, in which case we would walk anyway).  A lesson learnt too late for us.

So just pointing out that having a survey with "if they pick things up I can re-negotiate on the price" (thus potentially saving the survey cost) is not a given.

Your power to negotiate post survey needs to be considered alongside your pre-survey negotiation success.

 

If you got so much knocked off in the first instance then no there probably isn't much that the survey will throw up that will get you anymore knocked off.

But it will be a fresh pair of eyes looking over the boat and perhaps flagging things up that your rose tinted spectacles have missed whilst looking around the boat.

 

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I'm not sure why a well done overplate will make the boat worth the price of a packet of crisps. If the bottom plate is blasted and then over plated properly with decent plate and then two packed you are gaining years of service, (unless the plate is perforated and or subsequently you then let water between the layers.)

with my boat at 80 and myself at 60 this is what I have done . I confidently expect not to rebottom the boat again. Bits of my boat now ultasonicaly measure 15 mil because there are several bottoms and the surveyor is fine with this

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30 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

I'm not sure why a well done overplate will make the boat worth the price of a packet of crisps. If the bottom plate is blasted and then over plated properly with decent plate and then two packed you are gaining years of service, (unless the plate is perforated and or subsequently you then let water between the layers.)

with my boat at 80 and myself at 60 this is what I have done . I confidently expect not to rebottom the boat again. Bits of my boat now ultasonicaly measure 15 mil because there are several bottoms and the surveyor is fine with this

Agree. If you want a perfect hull then you really can't have an older boat. Its simply not practical to cut out thin plate from a 'leisure' boat and replace with new unless you want to re fit the whole thing. Most of us own boats that are massively strong for the job they do, we will not be going to sea in them, we require them to keep the water out, overplating does the job.

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