Inverter ac mains and AC out connection.

[Chewbacka]

Good to hear you got it working.  One thing to remember is if on shore power, and shore power goes off, the combi will switch automatically to battery power and will discharge your batteries.

[WotEver]

12 minutes ago, canals are us? said:

Will having the VSR and additional 4a charging cable from the victron to starter battery clash with each other?

I would say that having the VSR means that there’s no point in connecting the starter charging lead. It’s going to get charged along with the main bank anyway. 

[TheBiscuits]

22 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well firstly I didn't have £250 to spare and secondly, I don't want to die just yet! Although to be fair (and this was rather my point) probably, the owner will live happily for years because actually the wiring PROBABLY won't chafe through and/or it will be the neutral first. Maybe.

Thinking a bit more ... did you happen to get a pic of the OTHER end of the flex - specifically does it have an RCD built into it?

[canals are us?]

33 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Good to hear you got it working.  One thing to remember is if on shore power, and shore power goes off, the combi will switch automatically to battery power and will discharge your batteries.

Thanks for your reply. Indeed some could easily forget and end up with knackered batteries. I have switched it to charger only, as if we do ever get a power cut I'd like to know about it and can at least use the inverter and engine to recharge.

30 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I would say that having the VSR means that there’s no point in connecting the starter charging lead. It’s going to get charged along with the main bank anyway. 

This is what I thought when running the engine with the VSR, but will the starter battery get charged also, when on landline only with the victron charger? If not will having the charging lead connected cause harm?

Many thanks. James

Edited February 8, 2018 by canals are us?

[Guest]

Always safer to use a power "brick" and go low voltage with stuff such as that chain lamp.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Guest

[smileypete]

23 hours ago, canals are us? said:

Great, I got there in the end!

 After looking at the wiring diagrams on the victron website I realised that the mains shore line had to go to the Inverter first and confirmed by posts 2 and 5, so thank you all for sorting it out. I wish they included a wiring diagram in the instructions showing the basic layout, as found it on their website.

Should my 16amp MCB be a single or double pole MCB? Hoping single as less wide and enough room in current CU without having to fit an additional CU due to lack of room for a physically larger CU.

Many thanks. James

Haven't yet read all replies, but how about fit the 2 pole MCB protecting the combi into a separate small 2 or 3 module enclosure. It'd make the wiring more logical and easy to follow. Eg:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-3-module-ip65-insulated-enclosure-with-visor/74436

If connecting up 'flex' (fine stranded cable) to standard leccy bits don't forget to squish some bootlace ferrules on the bare ends of the strands, as standard leccy bits generally aren't designed for fine stranded cable...

[nicknorman]

49 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Thinking a bit more ... did you happen to get a pic of the OTHER end of the flex - specifically does it have an RCD built into it?

No, it just went straight into a 13A plug.

But anyway, we should bear in mind that an RCD is not a panacea. Serious injury can still be sustained by a shock via an RCD and it can be fatal, though obviously much less likely to be fatal than if no RCD.

26 minutes ago, canals are us? said:

Thanks for your reply. Indeed some could easily forget and end up with knackered batteries. I have switched it to charger only, as if we do ever get a power cut I'd like to know about it and can at least use the inverter and engine to recharge.

This is what I thought when running the engine with the VSR, but will the starter battery get charged also, when on landline only with the victron charger? If not will having the charging lead connected cause harm?

Many thanks. James

Yes, definitely get into the habit of switching to charger only when on shore power.

When the voltage is raised by the charger, the VSR will detect that and connect the two batteries banks together. But I don't think connecting the engine charger lead would cause a problem either.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, canals are us? said:

This is what I thought when running the engine with the VSR, but will the starter battery get charged also, when on landline only with the victron charger? If not will having the charging lead connected cause harm?

Yes, the charger will lift the voltage enough to also charge the engine battery via the VSR once the main batteries get past the bulk stage into absorption. 

No, I can’t see there being any harm having the other charging lead connected. As far as that output will be concerned it’d be just like having the engine running, or solar. 

[canals are us?]

1 hour ago, smileypete said:

Haven't yet read all replies, but how about fit the 2 pole MCB protecting the combi into a separate small 2 or 3 module enclosure. It'd make the wiring more logical and easy to follow. Eg:

 

If connecting up 'flex' (fine stranded cable) to standard leccy bits don't forget to squish some bootlace ferrules on the bare ends of the strands, as standard leccy bits generally aren't designed for fine stranded cable...

 

22 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yes, the charger will lift the voltage enough to also charge the engine battery via the VSR once the main batteries get past the bulk stage into absorption. 

No, I can’t see there being any harm having the other charging lead connected. As far as that output will be concerned it’d be just like having the engine running, or solar. 

WotEver. That's good news then. I'll connect the victrons 4amp charge lead to the starter battery then.

Smileypete. That's the option I decided to go for, as saved messing about with moving the CU, as you can see space limited.

power lead enters into the JB, earth goes to GI under the CU then earth goes to a chock block inside the 16amp MCB box to link back to the 3 core cable going to the inverter. Mains out to RCD Live and Neutral and earth connected to earthing bar. Just got to label up the CU and put some insulating tape on the battery feed positive of the inverter.

Some pictures!

 

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by canals are us?

[David Mack]

On 07/02/2018 at 19:15, nicknorman said:

We do get very excited about electrical safety on boats. Today we visited a farm shop/cafe place for a cuppa and scone+jam+cream (yummie!) and I noticed these "steam punk" / upcycled lights for sale. This one was £250! But look at the electrics! The thing is steel, the 2 core cable is intertwined in the steel chain. And it is clear that the cable is 2 core ie no earth, and certainly no evidence of an earth connection on the steelwork. Obviously a cottage industry from someone who has no idea about electrical safety. Right dodgy!

 

There's a chap local to us makes this sort of thing. I haven't checked his wiring, but I did notice that the plug on every lamp had a PAT test sticker on it. So I assume his lamps should be safer than these.

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

There's a chap local to us makes this sort of thing. I haven't checked his wiring, but I did notice that the plug on every lamp had a PAT test sticker on it. So I assume his lamps should be safer than these.

Bad assumption! A PAT test just tests that there isn’t a fault present. It doesn’t check for the propensity to develop a serious fault.

Anyway, you can buy PAT test stickers for about £7 for 1000!

Edited February 8, 2018 by nicknorman

[David Mack]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Bad assumption! A PAT test just tests that there isn’t a fault present. It doesn’t check for the propensity to develop a serious fault.

But it should give some assurance that the metal body is connected to the earth pin of the plug (which it clearly isn't in those photos).

[WotEver]

17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But it should give some assurance that the metal body is connected to the earth pin of the plug (which it clearly isn't in those photos).

Nope, not at all. A PAT test is only as good as the person carrying it out. If they didn’t check for earth continuity to the chassis then it won’t have any bearing on the pass. 

[Chewbacka]

12 hours ago, WotEver said:

Nope, not at all. A PAT test is only as good as the person carrying it out. If they didn’t check for earth continuity to the chassis then it won’t have any bearing on the pass. 

Agree, and the regs only require a visual check by a competent person for portable appliances in a low risk environment, such as an office.  There is no formal assessment of competence and the person doing it may deem themselves competent.  Their competence might be checked if someone complains.

[adrianh]

Your incoming mcb should ideally be a 2 pole combined rcd mcb type to allow for the chance that your incoming supply has the live and neutral crossed over or that other peoples locally connected faulty equipment renders your neutral connection live at 240 volts ac. A single pole overcurrent device does not protect you if this type of fault occurs, very similar problem to the loss of 1 phase in a 3 phase supply which can give excess neutral voltage and play havoc with electronic equipment as i have found to my cost.

I am not familiar with your device but how does it handle neutral to earth bonding? 

[nicknorman]

27 minutes ago, adrianh said:

Your incoming mcb should ideally be a 2 pole combined rcd mcb type to allow for the chance that your incoming supply has the live and neutral crossed over or that other peoples locally connected faulty equipment renders your neutral connection live at 240 volts ac. A single pole overcurrent device does not protect you if this type of fault occurs, very similar problem to the loss of 1 phase in a 3 phase supply which can give excess neutral voltage and play havoc with electronic equipment as i have found to my cost.

I am not familiar with your device but how does it handle neutral to earth bonding? 

Then incoming MCB doesn’t actually need to exist, nor does it need to be combined with an RCD. User protection is provided by breakers after the Combi. Of course you could fit an RCD. Along with the RCD in the bollard and the RCD after the Combi ie 3 RCDs in series. But why stop there, why not have another few dozen in series (that’s sarcasm!). Seriously, one RCD on the boat is enough! I don’t disagree about the double pole breaker but there only needs to be one, after the Combi.

The Combi has a NE bond relay which automatically activates to connect NE when inverting, and opens when shore power is connected.

[George and Dragon]

On 07/02/2018 at 14:30, Alan de Enfield said:

ISO 13297 "Small craft — Electrical systems — Alternating current installations for Small Craft (Up to 24 metres)

 

Should give all the answers and will ensure your installation meets both the RCD and BSS requirements.

If you need a copy - just ask & I'll mail it to you.
 

Is this offer still open?

My daughter has asked me to 'help' install shore power and an inverter on her boat.

I haven't seen the vessel so have no idea what this is going to entail.

 

Any boat sparks in the Reading area?

[WotEver]

45 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

Is this offer still open?

My daughter has asked me to 'help' install shore power and an inverter on her boat.

I haven't seen the vessel so have no idea what this is going to entail.

While you’re waiting you can view (but not print or save) the document here: https://bsol.bsigroup.com/Search/Search?searchKey=Bs+13297&OriginPage=Header+Search+Box&autoSuggestion=false

 

Select the top result. 

Click the Acrobat icon on the right. 

[George and Dragon]

ty

 

ETA: Sadly I just see a login page

Edited July 25, 2018 by George and Dragon
update

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

ty

It has pretty diagrams near the end. They all appear similar but are subtly different - select the most pertinent to your daughter’s situation. 

[nicknorman]

27 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

ty

 

ETA: Sadly I just see a login page

Yes you can’t go direct to a document link. You have to go here first, which automatically logs you in https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/162241/british_standards_online/category/1216/business_and_careers

 

then click “Go to British standards Online” button, then search for the document yourself. Search for 13297 and it’s the top hit. Click the small pdf-type icon far right to view the document.

Edited July 25, 2018 by nicknorman

[George and Dragon]

Thanks Nick. Sorted now

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, George and Dragon said:

Is this offer still open?

My daughter has asked me to 'help' install shore power and an inverter on her boat.

I haven't seen the vessel so have no idea what this is going to entail.

 

Any boat sparks in the Reading area?

If you still want a printable copy, pm me with your email and I'll send it onto you.

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes you can’t go direct to a document link

Ahh, didn’t realise that as I was already logged in so it worked for me. 

[George and Dragon]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you still want a printable copy, pm me with your email and I'll send it onto you.

message sent