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Inverter ac mains and AC out connection.


canals are us?

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I have started to install my 3kva victron multiplus with 16a power assist, charger and inverter.

I have done the battery cables to it ready to hook up but reading the manual it says that the mains ac in should be protected with a 16amp mcb. Is this wired into the 240 volt consumer unit so power comes from the main switch/rcd then 16 amp 2 pole mcb then supply out from mcb to inverter mains supply?

How does the ac out from the inverter connect to the AC consumer unit and what size rcd/mcb?

There is always more to learn!

Thanks. James:cheers:

 

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I think it means just what it says so: AC in > 16a MCB > Multiplus > AC out > CU (inc. RCD and MCb(s)).

I think a lot of people would rely on the 16a MCB on the shore supply bollard rather than fitting another one. Not sure if that's best practice though. 

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Wait for the real mains experts but I would think as this inverter probably has what I would call "power assist" for when the shoreline can not supply enough power so the inverter helps. You would put the MCB and RCD in the inverter output so however the mains are supplied you are protected. The power bollard in the marine should have an RCD and MCB built in although you could fit another MCB to the input side close to the shoreline socket. May well be wrong, wait for the experts.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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1 hour ago, bozlite said:

I think it means just what it says so: AC in > 16a MCB > Multiplus > AC out > CU (inc. RCD and MCb(s)).

I think a lot of people would rely on the 16a MCB on the shore supply bollard rather than fitting another one. Not sure if that's best practice though. 

You’re correct that most folk would rely on the bollard MCB and you’re also correct that it’s not best practise. 

ISO 13297 states (in part):

Quote

A manually reset trip-free circuit-breaker shall be installed within 0,5 m of the source of power or, if impractical, the conductor from the source of power to the panel-board circuit-breaker shall be contained within a protective covering, such as a junction box, control box, enclosed panel-board, or within a conduit or cable trunking or equivalent protective covering. If the location of the main shore-power inlet circuit-breaker exceeds 3 m from the shore-power inlet connection or the electrical attachment point of a permanently installed shore-power cord, additional fuses or circuit-breakers shall be provided within 3 m of the inlet or attachment point to the electrical system in the craft, measured along the conductor.

So, ideally, directly behind the shore power inlet you fit a 16A mcb. That then feeds the Victron which then in turn feeds the consumer unit. 

Edited by WotEver
Typo
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59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

ISO 13297 "Small craft — Electrical systems — Alternating current installations for Small Craft (Up to 24 metres)

 

Should give all the answers and will ensure your installation meets both the RCD and BSS requirements.

If you need a copy - just ask & I'll mail it to you.
 

Thanks everyone for your replies. Pm sent Alan. Current AC setup in my consumer unit is 1xRCD acting as main switch with 30ma protection then 2x10 amp MCB's one serving sockets. The other a 1kw immersion circuit.

James:cheers:

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Just now, canals are us? said:

Thanks everyone for your replies. Pm sent Alan. Current AC setup in my consumer unit is 1xRCD acting as main switch with 30ma protection then 2x10 amp MCB's one serving sockets. The other a 1kw immersion circuit.

James:cheers:

Both AC & DC 'Small Boat' (up to 24 metres) ISO standards E-mailed.

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Thanks Alan and all for your help.

Been looking at the regs and wiring diagrams and hope I have got it right now.

I think the shore socket supply wiring should go directly to a 16amp 2 pole MCB, then this MCB should feed power to the Inverter (mains in). AC out from inverter, to feed the Main on/ off RCD switch in the consumer unit?

This would make sense as mains supply directly connects to the inverter, thus if failiure of mains AC, (powercut) inverter takes over feeding power to the AC consumer unit using the batteries.

Am I correct?

James:)

Edited by canals are us?
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1 hour ago, canals are us? said:

I think the shore socket supply wiring should go directly to a 16amp 2 pole MCB, then this MCB should feed power to the Inverter (mains in). AC out from inverter, to feed the Main on/ off RCD switch in the consumer unit?

Yes. As per post #2 and post #5. 

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31 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yes. As per post #2 and post #5. 

Great, I got there in the end!

 After looking at the wiring diagrams on the victron website I realised that the mains shore line had to go to the Inverter first and confirmed by posts 2 and 5, so thank you all for sorting it out. I wish they included a wiring diagram in the instructions showing the basic layout, as found it on their website.

Should my 16amp MCB be a single or double pole MCB? Hoping single as less wide and enough room in current CU without having to fit an additional CU due to lack of room for a physically larger CU.

Many thanks. James:cheers:

Edited by canals are us?
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4 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Seems to me the 16A MCB should be in the Multiplus AC out. Can somebody tell me why it should be otherwise? 

Short answer is you need both.  Longer answer - If you are working to the ISO standard as required by RCD for new builds, you must have an MCB on the input, you also require an MCB(s) on the consumer unit that distributes the 230V ac power around the boat.

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1 minute ago, Chewbacka said:

Short answer is you need both.  Longer answer - If you are working to the ISO standard as required by RCD for new builds, you must have an MCB on the input, you also require an MCB(s) on the consumer unit that distributes the 230V ac power around the boat.

I take that as a single MCB covering the total load into  the CU and and zero or more than one separate individual MCBs as necessary to cover individual output loads if deemed necessary, or just the one MCB covering all the CU output, as desired.

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22 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Seems to me the 16A MCB should be in the Multiplus AC out. Can somebody tell me why it should be otherwise? 

The Multiplus can supply more than 16A, 16A from the shore line plus, using "power assist", more current from battiers via the inverter (frequency and phase matched). So the max input current is 16A, the max output current can be a lot more.

On our boat, the shore line goes direct to the Combi. There is no MCB before it, we rely on the shore bollard and Combi internal fuse. The reason for the BS-EN ISO requirement for an MCB within 0.5metres is to protect the wiring from a possible short. But our wiring is sheathed so we can go up to 3 metres, and that is more than the distance from shore inlet to Combi to RCBO so we are compliant. I don't really see that having another MCB in series with the shore MCB is of any practical value provided the wiring is protected by trunking/sheathing etc.

 

 

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1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

The Multiplus can supply more than 16A, 16A from the shore line plus, using "power assist", more current from battiers via the inverter (frequency and phase matched). So the max input current is 16A, the max output current can be a lot more.

Agreed, the 16A figure should be the design max amps used and built for.  I just used 16A because that is what I chose to build for - a slip!

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We do get very excited about electrical safety on boats. Today we visited a farm shop/cafe place for a cuppa and scone+jam+cream (yummie!) and I noticed these "steam punk" / upcycled lights for sale. This one was £250! But look at the electrics! The thing is steel, the 2 core cable is intertwined in the steel chain. And it is clear that the cable is 2 core ie no earth, and certainly no evidence of an earth connection on the steelwork. Obviously a cottage industry from someone who has no idea about electrical safety. Right dodgy!

IMG_3333.JPG.fe7130a073c5aa996b9b224004532375.JPG

 

IMG_3334.JPG.54465b21a2deccdd997fe37134a4930b.JPG

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16 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I don't really see that having another MCB in series with the shore MCB is of any practical value provided the wiring is protected by trunking/sheathing etc.

I completely agree, and that’s also what the bit I quoted from the ISO said. 

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

We do get very excited about electrical safety on boats. Today we visited a farm shop/cafe place for a cuppa and scone+jam+cream (yummie!) and I noticed these "steam punk" / upcycled lights for sale. This one was £250! But look at the electrics! The thing is steel, the 2 core cable is intertwined in the steel chain. And it is clear that the cable is 2 core ie no earth, and certainly no evidence of an earth connection on the steelwork. Obviously a cottage industry from someone who has no idea about electrical safety. Right dodgy!

IMG_3333.JPG.fe7130a073c5aa996b9b224004532375.JPG

 

IMG_3334.JPG.54465b21a2deccdd997fe37134a4930b.JPG

That’s an accident waiting to happen. 

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5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

We do get very excited about electrical safety on boats. Today we visited a farm shop/cafe place for a cuppa and scone+jam+cream (yummie!) and I noticed these "steam punk" / upcycled lights for sale. This one was £250! But look at the electrics! The thing is steel, the 2 core cable is intertwined in the steel chain. And it is clear that the cable is 2 core ie no earth, and certainly no evidence of an earth connection on the steelwork. Obviously a cottage industry from someone who has no idea about electrical safety. Right dodgy!

Obviously, being "The Da Vinci Lamp" its inspired by Robert Lamp-don. Did you buy it?

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1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Obviously, being "The Da Vinci Lamp" its inspired by Robert Lamp-don. Did you buy it?

Well firstly I didn't have £250 to spare and secondly, I don't want to die just yet! Although to be fair (and this was rather my point) probably, the owner will live happily for years because actually the wiring PROBABLY won't chafe through and/or it will be the neutral first. Maybe.

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16 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Well firstly I didn't have £250 to spare and secondly, I don't want to die just yet! Although to be fair (and this was rather my point) probably, the owner will live happily for years because actually the wiring PROBABLY won't chafe through and/or it will be the neutral first. Maybe.

Reminds me of old French wiring. We bought an old place on triphase and it was old braided wire in conduit with no earth and protected along the cable runs with porcelain fuses. We sold the house and the new owners were rewiring UK style which they don't (all radials and a load of them to pass a consuel inspection) Also using UK cable which isn't allowed in France as UK twin and earth doesn't conform to Normes France as I believe the earth wire is a smaller size. Nothing in mandatory 1 inch conduit. Told them but carrying on! They were still keeping the triphase even though it could be converted to mono at no cost by the supplier EDF. They got away with it at the time as if your property already had an electricity supply the wiring was never inspected. I think they have now brough out a wiring report as well as the others. Lead, asbestos etc.

James:)

 

Edited by canals are us?
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Went and got the electrical parts this morning. Well it's all wired in and up and running.:) Good bit of kit. Tested the inverter for a minute or 2 with a 1300 watt mini oven and all works. Also works when shoreline switched off, changes straight to inverter and vice versa.

Only job I need to do is run the cable to starter battery and fuse it with 5a fuse. Awaiting a crimp in post.

Working next week, so next job will be to buy and install the VSR kit and then with engine running try out the washing machine.

Will having the VSR and additional 4a charging cable from the victron to starter battery clash with each other?

Also run the 10mm cable for the freezer.

Many thanks:cheers: James:)

Edited by canals are us?
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22 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well firstly I didn't have £250 to spare and secondly, I don't want to die just yet! Although to be fair (and this was rather my point) probably, the owner will live happily for years because actually the wiring PROBABLY won't chafe through and/or it will be the neutral first. Maybe.

But it wouldn't look steampunk enough if it wasn't using unearthed cable.

Although for "proper" steampunk it wouldn't have the electrics at all - but imagine if the same person had made it a gas lamp!

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