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1 hour ago, IanD said:

Sounds like your system can do what he needs -- all he needs to do is build one, add a combo and externally controlled alternators and a lithium battery bank and he's away ?

Thanks for all your thoughts on this, its interesting stuff. Covid and stoppages have turned us into a more static boat this year which has made be think a lot more about battery charging. I am not doing anything yet because there is a chance of a winter home mooring with a small electricity supply and this would be another factor influencing the cost effectiveness of modifications.

I reckon our washing machine maybe uses 2kW on heat, not measured it but it loads the engine Much more than the immersion heater. I don't want to run this off an inverter, I would need to beef up all the battery cabling, and the TP does a fine job. So, the inverter/power assist side of a combi is not really needed.

I also don't mind longer engine runs to charge batteries, 3 or 4 hours (even 5 or 6) is fine as long as its not everyday. A smaller number of longer runs is much kinder to the engine, it would not even get hot in a half hour run. Longer runs get the Trojans to a higher state of charge.

We have 700Ah of Trojans (5-1/2 years old and still working) so can just (only just) manage with an engine run every other day, but a little bit of Lithium would really help. My plan would be to charge the Lithiums once the Trojans have gone to absorption. What would be good is an intelligent  battery charger that uses excess mains (from TP) to charge the batteries. Is there a charger that can do this? it would need to monitor mains voltage and set charge current such that mains voltage does not go below some settable threshold????

 

I think the bottom line is that everything is just about ok but I would love to have a play with some Lithium ?

 

................Dave

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31 minutes ago, dmr said:

My plan would be to charge the Lithiums once the Trojans have gone to absorption. What would be good is an intelligent  battery charger that uses excess mains (from TP) to charge the batteries. Is there a charger that can do this? it would need to monitor mains voltage and set charge current such that mains voltage does not go below some settable threshold????

 

I'm idly wondering about doing this but backwards, based on @Dr Bob's early and abandoned thoughts about using the 13.2V on the Lithiums to trickle charge the Lead Acids.

 

Fast charge a small (size to be determined) Lithium bank, bulk charge the LAs afterwards or simultaneously then run a small B2B charger off the Lithiums to finish charging the LA bank.  I'll have to crunch some numbers and make a few WAGs about efficiency first, but that's the thinking.

 

I've always been a fan of throwing the boat in gear and going elsewhere when running the engine, but we are of course locked down again.  Stationary charging is irritating me and I don't really want to just bimble 5 miles away from the convenient mooring and back just for the sake of it.

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41 minutes ago, dmr said:

We have 700Ah of Trojans (5-1/2 years old and still working) so can just (only just) manage with an engine run every other day, but a little bit of Lithium would really help. My plan would be to charge the Lithiums once the Trojans have gone to absorption.

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I'm idly wondering about doing this but backwards, based on @Dr Bob's early and abandoned thoughts about using the 13.2V on the Lithiums to trickle charge the Lead Acids.

 

Fast charge a small (size to be determined) Lithium bank, bulk charge the LAs afterwards or simultaneously then run a small B2B charger off the Lithiums to finish charging the LA bank.  I'll have to crunch some numbers and make a few WAGs about efficiency first, but that's the thinking.

 

 

 

I use my Li's paralleld into my LA's and they do work together well but you do have to be careful of not going too low on the LAs.

Pete is right on using a small BtoB charger to do the top up on the LA's. If you have discharged your LA's down to 50-60% SoC then they will need 14.4V+ to get that final tail current down - ie you are charging the sites deep in the pores of the plates and they need quite a bit of ooomph to get the sulphate to react. Charging a paralleled set of Li/LA will be at a much lower voltage -say up to 13.9V typical and this is too low to get those difficult to covert LA sites to convert.

A small BtoB would be very good. Once the charge to the Li/LA is turned off, the Li is connected through the LA via say a 30A BtoB set at an output of 14.6V (but input of only 13.2V) You would get the final 10% of charge into a 500Ahr LA bank over 3-4 hours via the Sterling 30A BtoB but dont forget you loose around 15% of the power (at least my BtoB's do). The wiring might be a bit complicated though.

 

14 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I'm idly wondering about doing this but backwards, based on @Dr Bob's early and abandoned thoughts about using the 13.2V on the Lithiums to trickle charge the Lead Acids.

 

 

I never abandoned my thinking about this. Always thought it was a good idea to have 100Ahr of Li's sitting above a typical LA bank. The B2Bs make it work very well.

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14 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I'm idly wondering about doing this but backwards, based on @Dr Bob's early and abandoned thoughts about using the 13.2V on the Lithiums to trickle charge the Lead Acids.

 

Fast charge a small (size to be determined) Lithium bank, bulk charge the LAs afterwards or simultaneously then run a small B2B charger off the Lithiums to finish charging the LA bank.  I'll have to crunch some numbers and make a few WAGs about efficiency first, but that's the thinking.

 

I've always been a fan of throwing the boat in gear and going elsewhere when running the engine, but we are of course locked down again.  Stationary charging is irritating me and I don't really want to just bimble 5 miles away from the convenient mooring and back just for the sake of it.

Well yes, thats my plan (almost) and again a development of the Dr Bob mixed concept. I differ from you in that I think charge the lead acids first (because they like to be charged) and then charge the lithium bank with the excess current once the leads go into absorption. On discharge then discharge the lithium first, and the first bit of this could be finishing the lead acid charge (and even an equalisation).  On a low discharge days the lithium could do the whole job and the leads not discharge one bit.

 

All done with a pair of DC-DC converters (B2B chargers?), the lithiums could even be 24 or 48 volt to keep the cabling easier. In my case the Travelpower could also help charge the lithiums.

 

............Dave

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3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I never abandoned my thinking about this. Always thought it was a good idea to have 100Ahr of Li's sitting above a typical LA bank. The B2Bs make it work very well.

 

Sorry, for clarity I meant your original plan of just letting the 13.2V on the lithiums trickle straight into the LA bank.  As you point out above, you need the 14.4V+ to actually make it work.

 

It's actually your idea that I'm blatantly pinching, but tweaking to make it work better! :D

  

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6 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I use my Li's paralleld into my LA's and they do work together well but you do have to be careful of not going too low on the LAs.

Pete is right on using a small BtoB charger to do the top up on the LA's. If you have discharged your LA's down to 50-60% SoC then they will need 14.4V+ to get that final tail current down - ie you are charging the sites deep in the pores of the plates and they need quite a bit of ooomph to get the sulphate to react. Charging a paralleled set of Li/LA will be at a much lower voltage -say up to 13.9V typical and this is too low to get those difficult to covert LA sites to convert.

A small BtoB would be very good. Once the charge to the Li/LA is turned off, the Li is connected through the LA via say a 30A BtoB set at an output of 14.6V (but input of only 13.2V) You would get the final 10% of charge into a 500Ahr LA bank over 3-4 hours via the Sterling 30A BtoB but dont forget you loose around 15% of the power (at least my BtoB's do). The wiring might be a bit complicated though.

 

I never abandoned my thinking about this. Always thought it was a good idea to have 100Ahr of Li's sitting above a typical LA bank. The B2Bs make it work very well.

The Trojans really need 14.8v or even 15 to get them fully charged, and a quick "mini equalisation" at about 15.5 on every charge is probably really good. This dictates keeping the leads and lithiums in separate banks and doing everything with dc-dc conversion.

 

...............Dave

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

Well yes, thats my plan (almost) and again a development of the Dr Bob mixed concept. I differ from you in that I think charge the lead acids first (because they like to be charged) and then charge the lithium bank with the excess current once the leads go into absorption. On discharge then discharge the lithium first, and the first bit of this could be finishing the lead acid charge (and even an equalisation).  On a low discharge days the lithium could do the whole job and the leads not discharge one bit.

 

All done with a pair of DC-DC converters (B2B chargers?), the lithiums could even be 24 or 48 volt to keep the cabling easier. In my case the Travelpower could also help charge the lithiums.

 

............Dave

I think you can do it with one 30A BtoB if you put in a switch to reverse the feeds to the B2B.

Set it up to charge the LA's with the charge then going to the Li's via the B2B. As the Li's charge, the voltage will be 13.5-13.9V charging the LA's and Li's at the max current the alternator can put out (the LA's will take as much as they can take). If you are only using say a 160Ahr 12V Li, when that gets to 80% charge, the BtoB isolates and the alternator then goes up to 14..8V (or whatever it is set at) and carries on charging the LA's only. I assume you may get to 90% charge or so. You then stop the engine.

You then turn the switch so the Li's (now at 13.4V) charge the LA's at 14.8V (or 15.5V if you prefer) and put say 60A into the LA's to take them up to 100%.

The Sterling BtoB turns itself off with a 12V signal (or 0V signal) so only a BMV needed to do the isolation. Quite a simple system really. The Sterling BtoB would work reasonably well for this but does consume some of the valuable power generated.

Send beer if you think it is a good idea.

 

ETA

You would also need to change the charge program. A 30 sec operation

 

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

 

It's actually your idea that I'm blatantly pinching, but tweaking to make it work better! :D

  

Please send beer.

Edited by Dr Bob
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9 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I think you can do it with one 30A BtoB if you put in a switch to reverse the feeds to the B2B.

Set it up to charge the LA's with the charge then going to the Li's via the B2B. As the Li's charge, the voltage will be 13.5-13.9V charging the LA's and Li's at the max current the alternator can put out (the LA's will take as much as they can take). If you are only using say a 160Ahr 12V Li, when that gets to 80% charge, the BtoB isolates and the alternator then goes up to 14..8V (or whatever it is set at) and carries on charging the LA's only. I assume you may get to 90% charge or so. You then stop the engine.

You then turn the switch so the Li's (now at 13.4V) charge the LA's at 14.8V (or 15.5V if you prefer) and put say 60A into the LA's to take them up to 100%.

The Sterling BtoB turns itself off with a 12V signal (or 0V signal) so only a BMV needed to do the isolation. Quite a simple system really. The Sterling BtoB would work reasonably well for this but does consume some of the valuable power generated.

Send beer if you think it is a good idea.

 

ETA

You would also need to change the charge program. A 30 sec operation

 

Please send beer.

Beer does not get sent, it gets purchased during those spontaneous face to face meetings that are such a lovely part of canal life.

 

If I ever get to do this project then I might well use 48volt lithiums, they can then be located a bit further way and use thinner cables. This would need two B2B's/DC converters. I think on the grand scheme of things the extra cost is not that big. The "discharge" device only needs to be about 30amp and a Victron solar controller might possibly do. The charge device should be at least 60amp, maybe a lot more, as it needs to put a lot of power into the Lithiums after the LAs have gone into absorption. I am not a fan of Sterling stuff and suspect there are better ways of doing it.

It would be nice to find DC converters that had a bus interface then use a home made controller (Arduino type thing) to do the overall management.

 

..............Dave

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23 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Send beer if you think it is a good idea.

 

23 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Please send beer.

 

I see I have to send beer regardless, but Dave only needs to send beer if he thinks it's a good idea ...

 

Just remember that the last time I bought you beer the duck went AWOL and I went round half the country costing you money!

 

I'm guessing you'll want it via overnight courier this time and not via Aunty Wainwright's travelling circus?

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15 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

 

Just remember that the last time I bought you beer the duck went AWOL and I went round half the country costing you money!

 

Shusssssssh! The duck's trying to keep a low profile (being prdominantly yellow and with his name being Donald). I thought there may have been a better chance of getting beer rather than noodles? 

Isnt it time for Auntie Waitrose to show up again?

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9 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Shusssssssh! The duck's trying to keep a low profile (being prdominantly yellow and with his name being Donald). I thought there may have been a better chance of getting beer rather than noodles? 

Isnt it time for Auntie Waitrose to show up again?

Many years ago we had a holiday in Arisaig (just outside Mallaig) and one of the children got ill, we had to see the local GP who really was Dr Donald Duck.

 

................Dave

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23 minutes ago, dmr said:

Many years ago we had a holiday in Arisaig (just outside Mallaig) and one of the children got ill, we had to see the local GP who really was Dr Donald Duck.

 

................Dave

We used to keep our lumpy water boat in Arisaig for the summer months.......before we got the duck.

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12 hours ago, dmr said:

Beer does not get sent, it gets purchased during those spontaneous face to face meetings that are such a lovely part of canal life.

 

If I ever get to do this project then I might well use 48volt lithiums, they can then be located a bit further way and use thinner cables. This would need two B2B's/DC converters. I think on the grand scheme of things the extra cost is not that big. The "discharge" device only needs to be about 30amp and a Victron solar controller might possibly do. The charge device should be at least 60amp, maybe a lot more, as it needs to put a lot of power into the Lithiums after the LAs have gone into absorption. I am not a fan of Sterling stuff and suspect there are better ways of doing it.

It would be nice to find DC converters that had a bus interface then use a home made controller (Arduino type thing) to do the overall management.

 

..............Dave

Assuming you want to reduce engine running time for charging and remove the need to run it all the time the washer is on, I think your best solution is as follows:

 

1. Keep existing 12V alternators (~100A=1.2kW) to charge existing 12V bank of lead-acid Trojans

2. Add a bank of (24V? 48V?) lithium cells as extra storage and to provide LA equalisation charge (several hours) without running engine

3. Add a B2B charger (lithium==>lead-acid) to do this -- could use an MPPT controller

4. Add a combo (connected to 12V LA cells) with 230Vac input from Travelpower to provide AC with engine off and pass TP AC through when engine is on

5. Add an AC/DC charger (230Vac==>lithium) to use TP to charge lithium batteries

 

Power flows are then:

Engine==>12V cells : alternators

Engine==>230Vac : Travelpower

Engine==>lithium cells : TP + combo + AC/DC charger

Lithium cells==>12V cells : B2B (MPPT?)

12V cells==>230Vac : combo

 

Engine runs for as short a time as possible to replace used energy and charge up both battery banks, can then be shut down and LA equalisation continues (several hours?) from lithium cells. If the lithium cells get charged first (high output from TP or smaller bank than 12V) then the B2B/MPPT can cross-charge, but this would need to be pretty hefty to move enough energy -- hence the MPPT suggestion, it's easier to get high-power MPPT controllers (e.g. 100A output) than it is high-power B2B chargers.

Edited by IanD
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25 minutes ago, IanD said:

Assuming you want to reduce engine running time for charging and remove the need to run it all the time the washer is on, I think your best solution is as follows:

 

1. Keep existing 12V alternators (~100A=1.2kW) to charge existing 12V bank of lead-acid Trojans

2. Add a bank of (24V? 48V?) lithium cells as extra storage and to provide LA equalisation charge (several hours) without running engine

3. Add a B2B charger (lithium==>lead-acid) to do this -- could use an MPPT controller

4. Add a combo (connected to 12V LA cells) with 230Vac input from Travelpower to provide AC with engine off and pass TP AC through when engine is on

5. Add an AC/DC charger (230Vac==>lithium) to use TP to charge lithium batteries

 

Power flows are then:

Engine==>12V cells : alternators

Engine==>230Vac : Travelpower

Engine==>lithium cells : TP + combo + AC/DC charger

Lithium cells==>12V cells : B2B (MPPT?)

12V cells==>230Vac : combo

 

Engine runs for as short a time as possible to replace used energy and charge up both battery banks, can then be shut down and LA equalisation continues (several hours?) from lithium cells. If the lithium cells get charged first (high output from TP or smaller bank than 12V) then the B2B/MPPT can cross-charge, but this would need to be pretty hefty to move enough energy -- hence the MPPT suggestion, it's easier to get high-power MPPT controllers (e.g. 100A output) than it is high-power B2B chargers.

I certainly like the idea of using MPPT controllers as DC-DC converters so need to find out more about this, it looks almost too good to be true, and the Victrons are very controllable from the phone (doing it from a DIY controller looks difficult though).

I really don't want to ever run the washing machine off inverters/batteries, that would probably need best part of 300 amps, the Travel Power is ideal.

Longish engine runs are ok too, probably good, a few long runs beats lots of short runs.

I propose the main advantages of a secondary lithium bank:

Extend the time between engine runs (when not cruising) to 3 or even 4 days.

Extend the life of the lead acid bank (it would not even be used during much summer cruising.

Avoid the need for Very long engine runs for periodic 100%+/equalisation charges

Flexibility of installation, a 48volt lithium bank can go into distant out of the way places like under the bed.

 

Finding the extra power to recharge the increased battery capacity is the only hard bit (apart from the money involved).

 

............Dave

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In case anyone is vaguely interested I’ve been doing some coding on my alternator controller and BMS. They are now exchanging data over CANBUS / Masterbus, so the alternator controller knows the individual cell voltages and the BMS knows the selected charge rate, target SoC and engine rpm.

I’ve got the BMS tripping the Tyco relay with the lowest cell voltage below 2.8 or the highest above 3.7, with some warning beeps as these limits are approached.

 

Ive added some filtering to the two main alternator parameters, the target charge voltage and the max field current, so these change upwards quite slowly and downwards fairly fast. If fast charge mode is selected, max field current is reduced when the engine rpm is below 1300, linearly to 50% of max at idle. If the alternator temperature gets to 80C, max field current is linearly reduced until it gets to 50% at 90C, so when fast charging it should hopefully stabilise around 85C although I think only a practical trial will reveal if there is any undue ringing in the loop response.
 

If a cell voltage reaches 3.65v then the target voltage starts to reduce (imbalanced cells), and of course it goes to a float voltage when the actual SoC reaches the target SoC.

 

Still to come is determining when the Combi has external power (Travelpower or shore power) and to control that in the same way as the alternator controller. I need to do some more sniffing of the Masterbus to get the address and parameter for the generator current limit so that it changes with rpm. Oh and the balancing system - need software and the external FETs and big resistors.

 

But otherwise, I’m getting scarily close to having to install the system complete with the Li batteries. Pity about lockdown, and then probably Christmas won’t be the best time to rip the existing system to bits!

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  • 1 year later...
On 20/11/2020 at 22:46, nicknorman said:

In case anyone is vaguely interested I’ve been doing some coding on my alternator controller and BMS. They are now exchanging data over CANBUS / Masterbus, so the alternator controller knows the individual cell voltages and the BMS knows the selected charge rate, target SoC and engine rpm.

I’ve got the BMS tripping the Tyco relay with the lowest cell voltage below 2.8 or the highest above 3.7, with some warning beeps as these limits are approached.

 

Ive added some filtering to the two main alternator parameters, the target charge voltage and the max field current, so these change upwards quite slowly and downwards fairly fast. If fast charge mode is selected, max field current is reduced when the engine rpm is below 1300, linearly to 50% of max at idle. If the alternator temperature gets to 80C, max field current is linearly reduced until it gets to 50% at 90C, so when fast charging it should hopefully stabilise around 85C although I think only a practical trial will reveal if there is any undue ringing in the loop response.
 

If a cell voltage reaches 3.65v then the target voltage starts to reduce (imbalanced cells), and of course it goes to a float voltage when the actual SoC reaches the target SoC.

 

Still to come is determining when the Combi has external power (Travelpower or shore power) and to control that in the same way as the alternator controller. I need to do some more sniffing of the Masterbus to get the address and parameter for the generator current limit so that it changes with rpm. Oh and the balancing system - need software and the external FETs and big resistors.

 

But otherwise, I’m getting scarily close to having to install the system complete with the Li batteries. Pity about lockdown, and then probably Christmas won’t be the best time to rip the existing system to bits!

First of all it's a pity the OP wrote the post about unsealed lead acid cells, as it's fairly good. Most boaters seem to be buying cheap caravan deep cycle or car start batteries, both sealed. I've come across several cases where a sealed battery bank has been trashed by an add on alternator voltage controller, and even one where a solar panel regulator had failed. In design terms my own system has 5 solar panels feeding 4 sealed lead acid batteries, (2 start and 2 house with separate selectors). The aim of the system was to make sure that the failure of any one unit can not result in more than one battery being trashed due to an overvoltage. That does mean not selecting the Both position on one of the two selectors, but that's a banned position on any boat I've owned or skippered. I did look at the Travelpower idea and it seems good, BUT I plan to fit a small air cooled diesel gen set, as using the type of engine I have at low power settings is bad news. I'm familiar with Canbus wiring from car and truck systems, but real surprised to find it in boats, as one break in the loop and the entire system is toast.

 

The KISS concept comes to mind about complex wiring of charge and engine systems.

Edited by TNLI
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1 hour ago, TNLI said:

I'm familiar with Canbus wiring from car and truck systems, but real surprised to find it in boats, as one break in the loop and the entire system is toast.

 

The KISS concept comes to mind about complex wiring of charge and engine systems.


Exactly the same applies to vehicles with CANBUS, one break in the loop and it stops working. Similarly, one punctured tyre stops it working, one burnt out clutch stops it working. There are numerous single point failures but the idea is to make the failures fairly unlikely and not catastrophic.

 

Our boat actually has two CANBUS systems, one being the Empirbus DC distribution system and the other being the Masterbus which I’ve also hijacked for my own use for comms between the alternator controller and the BMS. For the Empirbus system, keeping the integrity of two wires going around the boat is not really hard and if they did become disconnected, well I’d probably reconnect them. Even if disconnected this only stops communications between nodes, so nodes that have the switch inputs on the same node as the output (eg most of the lighting) would still work.


So far after 10 years it hasn’t developed any faults, even a minor one like a CANBUS wire disconnecting. Maybe it will at some point - but then every piece of technology fails eventually, it’s just a question of when.

 

For the Masterbus / home grown bus, I have of course built fallback strategies into the software to deal with the unlikely event that communication is lost. So for example if the alternator controller loses the individual cell voltages from the BMS, it reduces the charge voltage to a safe one. Ditto if it loses the SoC from both the BMS and the Mastershunt, it won’t try to charge to a specific SoC it will just gently charge at a safe voltage.

 

I know a lot of technophobes will be horrified at all this but these same people will typically have dodgy bits of wiring twisted together and with scotchlocs, old tired alternators, knackered batteries and horrid lighting without any modern services. That’s fine by me but it would be better if they didn’t criticise others who have actually moved into the 21st century, without the knowledge to do so competently.

Edited by nicknorman
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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:


Exactly the same applies to vehicles with CANBUS, one break in the loop and it stops working. Similarly, one punctured tyre stops it working, one burnt out clutch stops it working. There are numerous single point failures but the idea is to make the failures fairly unlikely and not catastrophic.

 

Our boat actually has two CANBUS systems, one being the Empirbus DC distribution system and the other being the Masterbus which I’ve also hijacked for my own use for comms between the alternator controller and the BMS. For the Empirbus system, keeping the integrity of two wires going around the boat is not really hard and if they did become disconnected, well I’d probably reconnect them. Even if disconnected this only stops communications between nodes, so nodes that have the switch inputs on the same node as the output (eg most of the lighting) would still work.


So far after 10 years it hasn’t developed any faults, even a minor one like a CANBUS wire disconnecting. Maybe it will at some point - but then every piece of technology fails eventually, it’s just a question of when.

 

For the Masterbus / home grown bus, I have of course built fallback strategies into the software to deal with the unlikely event that communication is lost. So for example if the alternator controller loses the individual cell voltages from the BMS, it reduces the charge voltage to a safe one. Ditto if it loses the SoC from both the BMS and the Mastershunt, it won’t try to charge to a specific SoC it will just gently charge at a safe voltage.

 

I know a lot of technophobes will be horrified at all this but these same people will typically have dodgy bits of wiring twisted together and with scotchlocs, old tired alternators, knackered batteries and horrid lighting without any modern services. That’s fine by me but it would be better if they didn’t criticise others who have actually moved into the 21st century, without the knowledge to do so competently.

I moved into the 21st century, but only as regards keeping costs low and making sure my systems are as reliable as possible. Is your Canbused onboard systems management system lightning proof ?? or does that have to be updated through your Canbus wired Masterfallbackscotchlocks. 

 

Oddly enough when I started the hull up lifeboat project I'm smitten with, I did find several wires twisted together, and 2 batteries with a far Eastern name that the salvage chaps had dumped. The real cool part was the 2 small solar panels that looked great but both had blown diodes, probably from a nearby lightning bolt. It did not have a Faradays cage and although the hull is Al, the topsides and deck were made of chipboard and polyester glass coating, if it had suffered a direct strike I suspect it would have caught fire and sunk rather earlier than it finally sank due to a leak from an intake filter and an open engine sea cock.

 

How many bilge pumps has your software been set for ??

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51 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I moved into the 21st century, but only as regards keeping costs low and making sure my systems are as reliable as possible. Is your Canbused onboard systems management system lightning proof ?? or does that have to be updated through your Canbus wired Masterfallbackscotchlocks. 

 

Oddly enough when I started the hull up lifeboat project I'm smitten with, I did find several wires twisted together, and 2 batteries with a far Eastern name that the salvage chaps had dumped. The real cool part was the 2 small solar panels that looked great but both had blown diodes, probably from a nearby lightning bolt. It did not have a Faradays cage and although the hull is Al, the topsides and deck were made of chipboard and polyester glass coating, if it had suffered a direct strike I suspect it would have caught fire and sunk rather earlier than it finally sank due to a leak from an intake filter and an open engine sea cock.

 

How many bilge pumps has your software been set for ??

Not lightning proof in itself, but being inside a steel structure I think being damaged by lightning is somewhere on page 47 of the list of possible failure mode, just below alien invasion and above zombie attack. Just the one bilge pump on auto and manual.

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4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Not lightning proof in itself, but being inside a steel structure I think being damaged by lightning is somewhere on page 47 of the list of possible failure mode, just below alien invasion and above zombie attack. Just the one bilge pump on auto and manual.

Steel is good, as contrary to popular belief you are less likely to be struck in a steel or alloy boat than a wood or plastic one. The only issue on any boat with lights and antennas is how the cables are installed. I use a small earthed coil around each cable that does no go through an alloy beam, and then on the antennas I've installed inline coax surge protector, (about a tenner each), They divert any central wire to earth when the voltage exceeds 240V through a small neon.  On my main HF transceiver the ATU has 3 switched outputs, so I can isolate the backstay, or emergency twig to a dummy load. The separate HF transceiver is only connected to a longish twig through a 9:1 Balun that helps to isolate the system in direct strike terms. That also has a manual ATU with an additional inline surge protector. 

 

Never understood why a lot of boat designers, or owners think one bilge pump is enough. I've always fitted 2, BUT my present lifeboat has 3 main watertight bulkheads which complicate things in pump terms. Present plan is 6 auto pumps, 3 high level alarms, a small manual stirrup pump for the dingy, and a mobile 230V emergency pump for use when the gen set is running.

 

It's unlikely that a canal boat will get holed, but engine hoses do split, so the bilge pump system should be capable of dealing with a missing engine or head hose. Alas they often are not. My own boat only had one 500 gals per hr pump when the previous owner let it sink. When you allow for pump to outlet and low voltage losses, the original pump was just about capable of dealing with any condensation during the winter.

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3 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Steel is good, as contrary to popular belief you are less likely to be struck in a steel or alloy boat than a wood or plastic one. The only issue on any boat with lights and antennas is how the cables are installed. I use a small earthed coil around each cable that does no go through an alloy beam, and then on the antennas I've installed inline coax surge protector, (about a tenner each), They divert any central wire to earth when the voltage exceeds 240V through a small neon.  On my main HF transceiver the ATU has 3 switched outputs, so I can isolate the backstay, or emergency twig to a dummy load. The separate HF transceiver is only connected to a longish twig through a 9:1 Balun that helps to isolate the system in direct strike terms. That also has a manual ATU with an additional inline surge protector. 

 

Never understood why a lot of boat designers, or owners think one bilge pump is enough. I've always fitted 2, BUT my present lifeboat has 3 main watertight bulkheads which complicate things in pump terms. Present plan is 6 auto pumps, 3 high level alarms, a small manual stirrup pump for the dingy, and a mobile 230V emergency pump for use when the gen set is running.

 

It's unlikely that a canal boat will get holed, but engine hoses do split, so the bilge pump system should be capable of dealing with a missing engine or head hose. Alas they often are not. My own boat only had one 500 gals per hr pump when the previous owner let it sink. When you allow for pump to outlet and low voltage losses, the original pump was just about capable of dealing with any condensation during the winter.


i suspect you are not particularly familiar with most canal boats. We don’t have any aerials, except for a magmount satellite dish that we plonk on the roof when moored. Otherwise it’s internet router in the window.

 

The engine holds a certain amount of water(coolant) and it doesn’t affect buoyancy if the coolant remains inside the engine, or is in the bilge. There is no raw water inlet or any other aperture below the waterline, with the exception of the prop shaft. The bilge pump is capable of dealing with a moderate leak from the stern gland, but not the complete loss of the prop shaft. That failure mode is on page 39, sandwiched between slipping into a black hole and being torpedoed by a nuclear submarine.

 

Obviously sea-going boats are an entirely different matter.

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12 minutes ago, nicknorman said:


i suspect you are not particularly familiar with most canal boats. We don’t have any aerials, except for a magmount satellite dish that we plonk on the roof when moored. Otherwise it’s internet router in the window.

 

The engine holds a certain amount of water(coolant) and it doesn’t affect buoyancy if the coolant remains inside the engine, or is in the bilge. There is no raw water inlet or any other aperture below the waterline, with the exception of the prop shaft. The bilge pump is capable of dealing with a moderate leak from the stern gland, but not the complete loss of the prop shaft. That failure mode is on page 39, sandwiched between slipping into a black hole and being torpedoed by a nuclear submarine.

 

Obviously sea-going boats are an entirely different matter.

I would have thought you would have a VHF, and some canal Hamsters have a 2m VHF rig. Yes I know many canal boats have keel cooling, as do I. Much better in ice, reliability and leak terms. If you can get 5G Internet then it should be possible to get TV through I player and a laptop. 

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20 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I would have thought you would have a VHF, and some canal Hamsters have a 2m VHF rig. Yes I know many canal boats have keel cooling, as do I. Much better in ice, reliability and leak terms. If you can get 5G Internet then it should be possible to get TV through I player and a laptop. 

Handheld VHF for very rare occasions when needed, eg the Trent. 3G can stream TV.

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