Ignition barrel failing

[Chalkhill Blue 2]

Hi.  When I turn the key to start my Barrus Shire 45hp diesel engine, the first position is always fine.  Once the injector light/warning buzzer goes out I then start the engine.  Normally it turns immediately and fires straight up.  Sometimes it fails completely as if the barrel is failing, i.e. no sound or clicking of solenoid from engine bay etc.  I have occasionally had to leave it a couple of hours before it finally works.  Then it works fine every day for a couple of weeks.  It has started happening more often so I will replace the barrel, but until I can get one can someone explain how I would hot wire it in an emergency.  Is there enough information in this picture to answer the question?  (I have searched this site and found no similar question) Thanks in advance, Neil

[Tony Brooks]

The Barrel is/was usually the part the key goes into and on older switches they were replaceable. Unless the end of the barrel has broken off I can see no way its a barrel problem, far more likely to be a loose connection, poor wiring or switch faculty although there are no signs of internal overheating.

The first thing to do is to locate and manipulate the large multi-plug connector that is usually on the main wiring harness between engine and instrument panel. This could well have a loose or dirty connection inside it. Try manipulating it and if the fault clears that the problem. You could pull it apart and have a look. Clean the male and female parts, tighten the female part if required but be gentle, smother with Vaseline or silicon grease & refit.

It looks to me as if any Off - aux - start switch will do the job as long as you get the wires on the correct terminals. I am not too sure why there is a red and black wire in one terminal though apart from the Yanks sometimes use black to signify live and brown for negative.

I am not sure what you mean by wire it in an emergency. If the ignition on position works then turn the ignition on and carefully connect the terminal on the starter with the large battery wire on it to the small single wire one that is separate from it but adjacent to it. Take the connection off the instant it starts. Look at the multi-plug first.

,

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

It may not be relevant, but I had a period when I pushed the starter of mine (I have a key and a starter button) sometimes it started, sometimes there was no click from the solenoid, and sometimes the red charging light went out but nothing happened.

After a few weeks of cursing and assuming the button was faulty it turned out to be the earth connection had just got gunked up to such an extent it was only connecting spasmodically.  Changed that and had no more problems.

[Chalkhill Blue 2]

Thanks Tony.  I will check the connections as you suggest first.  Cheers, Neil

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Chalkhill Blue 2 said:

Thanks Tony.  I will check the connections as you suggest first.  Cheers, Neil

Isn't it still in warranty?

[Eeyore]

These engines have a (slave) relay for the starter, usually mounted on the side of the engine. Try “waggling” the relay next time it fails to start. Sometimes it’s the relay, and sometimes it’s muck and corrosion on the pins and socket. I think it’s a 70 amp version of the typical 1 inch cube relays. The 70 amp type has two larger spade terminals. The lower rated ones come in two types; each has the same terminal numbers - but in different positions.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Eeyore

[Chalkhill Blue 2]

Thanks Eeyore.  Engine wouldn't start this morning.  Waggled relay as you suggested and it started straight away.  Does that point to poor connections on the relay or a failing relay?  Cheers, Neil

[WotEver]

56 minutes ago, Chalkhill Blue 2 said:

Thanks Eeyore.  Engine wouldn't start this morning.  Waggled relay as you suggested and it started straight away.  Does that point to poor connections on the relay or a failing relay?  Cheers, Neil

Poor connection. Pull the relay and gently scrape the blades until they’re shiny then insert, pull, insert, pull a few times. 

[Eeyore]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Poor connection. Pull the relay and gently scrape the blades until they’re shiny then insert, pull, insert, pull a few times. 

Wot he said 

You should check everything Tony has suggested whilst you are down there; its the same type of connection in the same environment.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Eeyore

[bizzard]

To be honest I'd chuck the black cube relay and used one of the old type stand alone starter solenoids as a relay. much, much tougher. The type that old cars used to have with inertia starter motors. AES sell them. If you get one with the push button on it you can turn the engine over with it too. 

[Chalkhill Blue 2]

OK. Thanks for your help guys.  The behaviour has now moved on since cleaning all the connections as instructed.

I turn the ignition key and nothing happens, so I keep it turned and after a few or even many seconds the engine turns over and fires up straight away.

Any thoughts?

Cheers, Neil

 

[Phil Ambrose]

Go for broke and fit a new ignition switch, could be the best £15-00 you've spent.

Phil

[MtB]

On 05/02/2018 at 11:22, bizzard said:

To be honest I'd chuck the black cube relay and used one of the old type stand alone starter solenoids as a relay. much, much tougher. The type that old cars used to have with inertia starter motors. AES sell them. If you get one with the push button on it you can turn the engine over with it too. 

 

Yep, that button on the end was BRILLIANT innit! Seemed to vanish from cars in about 1963 though.

Another idea is scrap the solenoid completely and use a starter press button, as used to be fitted in the floor of the very earliest Minis, up to about 1961 IIRC.  Bizz will remember!

[BruceinSanity]

5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yep, that button on the end was BRILLIANT innit! Seemed to vanish from cars in about 1963 though.

Another idea is scrap the solenoid completely and use a starter press button, as used to be fitted in the floor of the very earliest Minis, up to about 1961 IIRC.  Bizz will remember!

At least the starter button had a protective collar so that you couldn't stand on it, unlike the floor dip switch next to the clutch. Dark night, narrow road, approaching car, go to change down and dazzle the poor sod instead...

[bizzard]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yep, that button on the end was BRILLIANT innit! Seemed to vanish from cars in about 1963 though.

Another idea is scrap the solenoid completely and use a starter press button, as used to be fitted in the floor of the very earliest Minis, up to about 1961 IIRC.  Bizz will remember!

This is it Mike. Relays are a pest, they're only fitted because the switch gear and perhaps wiring is too puny for the job and can't take the load. Old vehicles and boats had proper meaty switches and gear that didn't need relays to relay the current to a device. Everyone has got used to lightweight switches now, almost touch control, needing relays which complicates the electrical system and making it more unreliable. The car manufacturers found it cheaper to go the relay route using cheap puny switchgear instead for almost everything on the car around the early 1970's, the Ford Mk4 Zephyr's, Zodiacs were one of the first and were incredibly troublesome.

[Guest]

On 04/02/2018 at 20:55, Eeyore said:

These engines have a (slave) relay for the starter, usually mounted on the side of the engine. Try “waggling” the relay next time it fails to start. Sometimes it’s the relay, and sometimes it’s muck and corrosion on the pins and socket. I think it’s a 70 amp version of the typical 1 inch cube relays. The 70 amp type has two larger spade terminals. The lower rated ones come in two types; each has the same terminal numbers - but in different positions.

Vetus engines sometimes display this exact fault.

[TheBiscuits]

17 hours ago, Chalkhill Blue 2 said:

OK. Thanks for your help guys.  The behaviour has now moved on since cleaning all the connections as instructed.

I turn the ignition key and nothing happens, so I keep it turned and after a few or even many seconds the engine turns over and fires up straight away.

Any thoughts?

Cheers, Neil

 

Either pop the cover off the relay and clean the contacts *inside* the box or replace the relay.

The fact that cleaning the outer connections improved it suggests the whole thing is old and dirty.

 

Oh yeah - disconnect it first. If you don't you will wish you had ...

[MtB]

On 11/02/2018 at 14:04, TheBiscuits said:

Either pop the cover off the relay and clean the contacts *inside* the box or replace the relay.

The fact that cleaning the outer connections improved it suggests the whole thing is old and dirty.

 

Oh yeah - disconnect it first. If you don't you will wish you had ...

 

Cleaning contacts on relays is a waste of effort in my experience. Always fit a new one. 

Cleaning contacts works for a few times but the symptoms return tout suite. Or even quicker. 

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Cleaning contacts on relays is a waste of effort in my experience. Always fit a new one. 

Cleaning contacts works for a few times but the symptoms return tout suite. Or even quicker. 

Maybe, but if it works perfectly once you have done it you can then replace the relay.

If not, more diagnostics required. 

In this case cleaning the crud off the external contacts seems to have helped, so for 2 minutes' work it would seem worthwhile.

[Tony Brooks]

As the relaays are nothing special and can be had for under £5 its not worth messing about with them. Pull it out, take it to a car place and make sure the numbers on the blades are in the same place on both the old & new relay. Shove the new on in and the job is done. In 2016 Vehicle wiring products listed a 30 amp one at £1.87.

[MtB]

On 11/02/2018 at 15:26, TheBiscuits said:

Maybe, but if it works perfectly once you have done it you can then replace the relay.

If not, more diagnostics required. 

In this case cleaning the crud off the external contacts seems to have helped, so for 2 minutes' work it would seem worthwhile.

 

I suppose my perspective is somewhat distorted by my occupation. People expect my repairs to be 100% right first time. Mucking about dismantling a relay just leads to a call back and a damaged reputation, usually. 

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

As the relaays are nothing special and can be had for under £5 its not worth messing about with them. Pull it out, take it to a car place and make sure the numbers on the blades are in the same place on both the old & new relay. Shove the new on in and the job is done. In 2016 Vehicle wiring products listed a 30 amp one at £1.87.

 

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I suppose my perspective is somewhat distorted by my occupation. People expect my repairs to be 100% right first time. Mucking about dismantling a relay just leads to a call back and a damaged reputation, usually. 

The last time I did strip and clean a relay (oddly enough for a boater who thought his ignition switch was faulty!) was at 6PM on a Sunday about 20 miles from the nearest auto factors when the chap moored next to me asked for help to start his engine.

I fully agree that if you are either near a shop or on a work call it's not worth the bother. 

Do you always carry a full range of possible spares for old boilers though Mike?  Have you never done a "this'll work till I can get the parts for you" repair in winter?

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

The last time I did strip and clean a relay (oddly enough for a boater who thought his ignition switch was faulty!) was at 6PM on a Sunday about 20 miles from the nearest auto factors when the chap moored next to me asked for help to start his engine.

I fully agree that if you are either near a shop or on a work call it's not worth the bother. 

Do you always carry a full range of possible spares for old boilers though Mike?  Have you never done a "this'll work till I can get the parts for you" repair in winter?

Agree it is a get you home bodge. I did exactly this when the glow plug relay failed in the middle of nowhere. Called in at Cheshire Marine a couple of days later and got two, a replacement and a spare. With the benefit of hindsight I now carry a spare one for the glow plugs and a spare one for the starter (they are different on our engine.)

[cuthound]

On 11/02/2018 at 01:32, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yep, that button on the end was BRILLIANT innit! Seemed to vanish from cars in about 1963 though.

Another idea is scrap the solenoid completely and use a starter press button, as used to be fitted in the floor of the very earliest Minis, up to about 1961 IIRC.  Bizz will remember!

My 1964 Mini Cooper S had a floor mounted starter button 

My 1965 Riley Elf didn't, it had a keyswitch in the middle of the dashboard.

Edited February 12, 2018 by cuthound
To add the last sentance

[bizzard]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

My 1964 Mini Cooper S had a floor mounted starter button 

My 1965 Riley Elf didn't, it had a keyswitch in the middle of the dashboard.

The floor mounted starter solenoids were still used on Mini vans to about 1966. The old Fords 100E's had a pull starter knob on the dashboard pulled a wire that worked a starter switch on the bulkhead of the engine bay, as did many old cars, MM Minor ect, ect. The old 6v Ford sit up and begs and E83W 10cwt vans all had pull knob starters where its wire went directly to a big lever on the starter motor mounted switch. I can't rember any of them ever giving any trouble at all. Early Land Rovers had the push button starter solenoid under the dash in the cab.  All lovely and simple.

 

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

My 1964 Mini Cooper S had a floor mounted starter button 

My 1965 Riley Elf didn't, it had a keyswitch in the middle of the dashboard.

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by bizzard