Vicrton Phoenix MultiPlus compact Problem

[Simon D]

Could I ask some advice please on a Victron Unit. Over the weekend the unit cut out - at a time I suspect the 240v AC power drawn through the unit was very high (and probably the shore supply and inverter supplement both working hard - but I was not there so I don't know).

When I investigate it now, it is not charging.

There is mains shore supply coming into the boat OK, but when I switch the unit to ON, AC power is switched through OK, but it will not charge the batteries. And every 10 seconds or so it clicks as if a relay is trying to make a connection but trips out again immediately. When  switched to charger only there is no AC power switched through, and the "mains on" lamp flashes on the remote panel.

I am wondering if the Thermal Cut Out has tripped (the unit is in a very hot cupboard - a bad design flaw)

So

How do I reset the thermal cut out - and where is it on the Victron MultiPlus compact? I can't seem to find a user manual with a labelled drawing of the uni anywhere on the web.

Any other clues or hints that match those symptoms?

Thanks for any help you can give.

 

 

[pearley]

If the unit is switched to charger only then mains is switched to the sockets and the batteries are charged but there is no power assist function. If switched to AC then you should have mains to your sockets, battery charging and power assist via the inverter. You don't say what the indicator LEDs are saying but it does sound as though transfer switch has failed and that the mains you are getting is via the inverter. 

On our first Victron the reset button was through a hole in the bottom left corner of the front panel. On the later one it was under the bottom left corner of the unit. 

[Simon D]

1 hour ago, pearley said:

If the unit is switched to charger only then mains is switched to the sockets and the batteries are charged but there is no power assist function. If switched to AC then you should have mains to your sockets, battery charging and power assist via the inverter. You don't say what the indicator LEDs are saying but it does sound as though transfer switch has failed and that the mains you are getting is via the inverter. 

On our first Victron the reset button was through a hole in the bottom left corner of the front panel. On the later one it was under the bottom left corner of the unit. 

Thanks, that seems to tie in with my (inexpert) assessment of what is going on. The only indicator LED that lights is the flashing "mains on" one, all the battery charging side LEDs remain resolutely off.

There is what looks like a red reset button on the front of the unit. I did not want to press it without knowing what it was - but I think I will try it next time I visit the boat, on Sunday.

One question please - what do you mean by "transfer switch", and what does it do? That's not a term I recognise from the Victron Manual?

Best wishes

 

[pearley]

It's a big relay inside the unit which switches the mains input into the charger/inverter part. It could be what you hear clicking. Some of the Victron models have internal fuses that are just a strip of wire across 2 points of the circuit board. No idea where they are though! 

[Simon D]

Just to progress this issue, after advice from this forum (thank you) I got an electrician to exclude any possible causes external to the Victron box, and then removed the box and took it to a Victron dealer for investigation (Barden's of Fareham).

They sad it was a circuit board problem, the one controlling the main relay switching power to the battery charging function. The inverter is fine. And that seems to match the symptoms I have seen.

The problem comes with the solution proposed. When Barden's went back to Victron for advice, Victron said the unit was not worth/beyond repair as it was about 11 years old, and the only way forward was to buy a new unit. Which is about £600 plus VAT for a Victron Phoenix multi-plus compact.

That is a lot of money. Over £1000 once I have paid VAT and the electrician's fees. So before I commit to a new unit I thought it worth sharing it with this group in case there were other possible solutions, or other ways to get the existing box working, or getting a cheaper inverter charger

Many thanks for any help you can give. I am based in Wiltshire and London (if that is relevant).

 

[Alan de Enfield]

If the inverter part is still working why not go the 'sensible way' and separate the functions - buy a nice charger for a couple of hundred and you are good to go (as they say)

I had a similar problem some years ago and since then prefer to have separate functions for each piece of equipment, I had to send the Victron away for 'looking at' and so was without both a charger and the inverter , however with 'separates ' WHEN the 'worse happens' you only have to replace one (cheaper) item.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Dr Bob]

Yes, I'm with Alan. Go for separates.

We've got a Victron Pheonix multi plus (15 years old) which this winter decided to switch itself off - probably a hic-cup in the marina supply - when we were away from the boat for a few day. It reset itself and was fine in normal operation but we didnt want that 'turn off' repeating when we needed the oil fired radiators on when away.

I got the electrics rewired so that I have 240V direct to the 240V electrics (via breakers and switches etc), added a 30 A Victron bluesmart charger (£200) and use the multiplus as the inverter. I also wired it so I can use the multiplus in its normal way of operating (both charger and inverter).

If it is still working fine as an inverter then just a charger is the cheapest way.

[Markinaboat]

A few years ago, I had a similar issue with an MV Dakar Combi. I used APS Electrical who stripped down and repaired. Everyone else said it was irreparable.

Not sure if they're still going but worth a call -  01423 813980

Edited to add: http:// http://www.cylex-uk.co.uk/reviews/viewcompanywebsite.aspx?firmaName=aps+advance+product+services+ltd&companyId=23035128

Edited April 27, 2018 by Markinaboat
Addition

[WotEver]

41 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

Edited to add:

Fixed link...

http://www.cylex-uk.co.uk/reviews/viewcompanywebsite.aspx?firmaName=aps+advance+product+services+ltd&companyId=23035128

They’d definitely be worth a shot. 

[Markinaboat]

26 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Fixed link...

http://www.cylex-uk.co.uk/reviews/viewcompanywebsite.aspx?firmaName=aps+advance+product+services+ltd&companyId=23035128

They’d definitely be worth a shot. 

[Robbo]

If you go down the separate charger option and charge via shore line (ie not a generator), then you don't need a larger charger, something like a 20amp is usually more than enough.   If you charging via generator then thats different as time counts.

[Sea Dog]

34 minutes ago, Robbo said:

If you go down the separate charger option and charge via shore line (ie not a generator), then you don't need a larger charger, something like a 20amp is usually more than enough.   If you charging via generator then thats different as time counts.

Yep, I'm loving my Victron ip22 30a charger, bought for exactly the same reason as you (although I also went for a new inverter too).  I think I'd probably not bother with the Bluetooth variant (Bluesmart) if I was doing it again.  The great thing about the charger (and 12v dc power supply of course) is that it's silent unless under very heavy load whereas my mastervolt inverter charger was audible whenever the charger was on - including overnight. 

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

The great thing about the charger (and 12v dc power supply of course) is that it's silent unless under very heavy load whereas my mastervolt inverter charger was audible whenever the charger was on - including overnight. 

Yes, it won't be long before the night-shift get on the forum - those that say 'everything in one box' is the only way to go.

[Dr Bob]

49 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Yep, I'm loving my Victron ip22 30a charger, bought for exactly the same reason as you (although I also went for a new inverter too).  I think I'd probably not bother with the Bluetooth variant (Bluesmart) if I was doing it again.  The great thing about the charger (and 12v dc power supply of course) is that it's silent unless under very heavy load whereas my mastervolt inverter charger was audible whenever the charger was on - including overnight. 

I agree on the  Bluesmart. I've not bothered pairing my phone to the charger as it is so easy to use ...I just pair with the BMV 712 smart battery monitor and keep an eye on charging with that. Could have saved some money there and got the version without Bluetooth. Very pleased with mine. 30A has been fine even coming back to the marina with 60Ahr to go to full charge, The until copes very well and is very quiet.

[Robbo]

57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes, it won't be long before the night-shift get on the forum - those that say 'everything in one box' is the only way to go.

There's an advantage if you want the power assist option or have a generator and want a large amp charger as the price is close to a combi anyhow.

18 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I agree on the  Bluesmart. I've not bothered pairing my phone to the charger as it is so easy to use ...I just pair with the BMV 712 smart battery monitor and keep an eye on charging with that. Could have saved some money there and got the version without Bluetooth. Very pleased with mine. 30A has been fine even coming back to the marina with 60Ahr to go to full charge, The until copes very well and is very quiet.

Victron are developing the bluetooth technology more and more so you'll find it in alot of the latest stuff and possible be of benefit if you have multiple Victron devices - it's not just for talking to your phone.   They have just released temperature sensors, etc.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Robbo

[Dr Bob]

3 minutes ago, Robbo said:

 

Victron are developing the bluetooth technology more and more so you'll find it in alot of the latest stuff and possible be of benefit if you have multiple devices.   They have just released temperature sensors, etc.

I find it useful to connect to the battery monitor as you can see all the relevant stuff on the phone. Not sure about the charger as the battery monitor link has all the info required i.e. You can infer what the charger is doing. I would like to see an app that picked up all the info with one link. Back in my lumpy water days, we had an nmea system that carried all the data on a network from raymarine and other kit that could be seen in one place...and likely now with a phone via Bluetooth, and could be linked to a pc easily to record all data incl, position, speed, bearing etc. Separate Bluetooth devices seems a retrograde step. I hope they make it more user friendly in the future.

[Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I find it useful to connect to the battery monitor as you can see all the relevant stuff on the phone. Not sure about the charger as the battery monitor link has all the info required i.e. You can infer what the charger is doing. I would like to see an app that picked up all the info with one link. Back in my lumpy water days, we had an nmea system that carried all the data on a network from raymarine and other kit that could be seen in one place...and likely now with a phone via Bluetooth, and could be linked to a pc easily to record all data incl, position, speed, bearing etc. Separate Bluetooth devices seems a retrograde step. I hope they make it more user friendly in the future.

Here's a little more info on Vicron's bluetooth network;  https://www.victronenergy.com/live/victronconnect:ve-smart-networking

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

record all data incl, position, speed, bearing etc.

That little model galleon is still being tracked, now off the coast of South America:

https://yb.tl/a

The story for anyone who doesn’t know:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/948594/model-boat-toy-guyana-atlantic-ocean-stena-carron-ship-ferguson-family-ollie-harry/amp

[Dr Bob]

9 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Here's a little more info on Vicron's bluetooth network;  https://www.victronenergy.com/live/victronconnect:ve-smart-networking

Looks like it only does bmv's and mppt's. Not that useful yet and I can't see a way to record the data. Do you know if there's is a way to do that?

[Robbo]

8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Looks like it only does bmv's and mppt's. Not that useful yet and I can't see a way to record the data. Do you know if there's is a way to do that?

I think it's only early days and another network technology to add to Victron's list of quite a few so far.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Robbo

[Sea Dog]

9 hours ago, Robbo said:

Victron are developing the bluetooth technology more and more so you'll find it in alot of the latest stuff and possible be of benefit if you have multiple Victron devices - it's not just for talking to your phone.   They have just released temperature sensors, etc.

Actually, having read this I remembered that the other advantage of the Bluetooth charger is the ability to update the firmware with ease so that, and your observations, probably swings it.

[Simon D]

Thanks Guys - as always, a very helpful conversation (until it got diverted into Bluetooth).

For my circumstances I want to keep it simple, so a smaller, quieter battery charger/battery maintenance system, and a separate inverter, is probably the way to go. All the boxes are sat in a small, un-ventilated cupboard next to the hot water tank, so going to two boxes might help them all run cooler as well.

Robbo is right that this won't give the "powerassist", so I will have to do a few tests to make sure I can get by on shore supply alone before committing finally.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Simon D said:

Robbo is right that this won't give the "powerassist", so I will have to do a few tests to make sure I can get by on shore supply alone before committing finally.

We used to have a mooring that was 4 amps, but that was a long, long time ago.

These days, I don't remember coming across one less than 16 amps (I am sure they are out there) but with todays expectations I doubt there are many.

[Simon D]

Agreed, I am not expecting it to be a problem, but no harm in doing a few experiments just to be certain. If I can run a 2kw electric radiator, a medium size microwave, and have a bit spare to keep the battery load floating I will be happy.

What sort of load does a microwave have typically?

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Simon D said:

What sort of load does a microwave have typically?

As a rough guide - typically 2x the rated 'wattage'

So, for an 850 watt microwave you are looking at  a peak of around 1700 watts (or about 7.5 amps at 230v)

You are unlikely to be able to run a 2kw electric radiator (8.7 amps at 230v) and the microwave,  and certainly not as wells as a battery charger all at the same time from a 16a shore supply.

(We have a 700w microwave which runs happily from a Sterling 1800 w semi-quasi Inverter).