Carbon Monoxide Alarm Petition

[Chewbacka]

I think we all should take responsibility for ourselves, more die from diesel emissions in cities, smoking etc and there is little done.  So for CO alarms I have two, happy to have them as an advisory but don’t want it a mandatory bss requirement.  I won’t be signing.

[David Schweizer]

4 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

And remember to refit it when you return

 

That was easy, I had to take the alarm off the bulkhead to remove the battery, I then put it on the bed, which reminded me to replace the battery abd put the alarm back on the bulkhead when i returned to the boat.

[Phil Ambrose]

I have smoke and CO detectors but...... .. ...can't help wondering why they are not compulsory in houses. Likewise a House Safety Certificate. 

Phil 

[MtB]

On 02/02/2018 at 21:55, David Schweizer said:

That was easy, I had to take the alarm off the bulkhead to remove the battery, I then put it on the bed, which reminded me to replace the battery abd put the alarm back on the bulkhead when i returned to the boat.

 

This therefore, should be written into the BSS too. Yes?

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

I have smoke and CO detectors but...... .. ...can't help wondering why they are not compulsory in houses. Likewise a House Safety Certificate. 

Phil 

IIRC if you rent a property out then alarms must be fitted, and certification in place. I don't know of any requirements for a dwelling that one owns and occupies, other than advisory electrical and gas checks etc.  No doubt a compulsory house safety certificate will appear one day; a nice little earner.

[MtB]

On 02/02/2018 at 23:26, catweasel said:

IIRC if you rent a property out then alarms must be fitted, and certification in place.

 

Not AFAIK. 

A smoke alarm on every storey is mandatory in rentals, and a CO alarm ONLY if there is a solid fuel appliance. No certification is required. 

[Murflynn]

18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The BSS actually costs £36 ( the rest that we pay is whatever the surveyor wants to charge us for his time) so the increase is £7 in £36. (about 20%)

 

The BSS was (is) never intended to be a test of what 'puts the boater at risk' - their 'mission statement' is :

The Boat Safety Scheme, or BSS, is a public safety initiative owned by the Canal & River Trust and the Environment Agency. Its purpose is to help minimise the risk of boat fires, explosions, or pollution harming visitors to the inland waterways, the waterways' workforce and any other users.

(Not the actual boater who causes the fire, explosion or pollution, hence things like ventilation and Co being only advisory as they only affect the 'boater' and no one outside of the boat).

 

And, later - "The Purpose of the BSS"

The BSS is in place to help minimise the risks to all visitors to the waterways and the waterways' workforce, and to help protect adjacent property, related to the condition, equipment and use of boats. The BSS is also used to minimise the risk of avoidable pollution from boats.

I believe that those statements are misunderstood (a common misconception, in my experience), and that your conclusions are false.   

Surely, from the viewpoint of the authors of the BSS, boaters are also 'visitors' to the inland waterways  .................  yes, even those continuous moorers who believe they own their little patch of water.   In any event, BSS have a catch-all in the words 'or any other users'.

 

 

PS:   I could shout but I don't think it's necessary.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Murflynn

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

I believe those statements are misunderstood and your conclusions are false.   

Surely, from the viewpoint of the authors of the BSS, boaters are also 'visitors' to the inland waterways  .................  yes, even those continuous moorers who believe they own their little patch of water.   In any event, BSS have a catch-all in the words 'or any other users'.

I am not sure what other interpretation you could put on the statements.

Taking the 'Purpose of the BSS'

"The BSS is in place to help minimise the risks to all visitors to the waterways and the waterways' workforce, and to help protect adjacent property, related to the condition, equipment and use of boats. The BSS is also used to minimise the risk of avoidable pollution from boats".

This could be written as "The BSS is a system to minimise risk to all visitors to the waterways, and the waterways' workforce and to protect adjacent property by monitoring the condition of, and type of, equipment used on boats................."

I suppose it all boils down to the definition of "visitor"

If there was any intent to include boaters then items that 'minimised the risk' would also be included, items such as sufficient ventilation, smoke alarms, Co alarms, height of thru-hull fittings above the water line, no DIY gas or electrical work, and so on.

It is not illegal to 'self-harm' and, I believe, legislation can only  be introduced to stop anyone from harming a third party.

[Sir Nibble]

Suicide is legal.

[Tanglewood]

Litigation is what drives many safety measures.  And the avoidance of unnecessary costs for medical treatment and insurance claims.  We live in a highly regulated country, there are plenty of countries around the world that are less highly regulated, and perhaps less safe.  If any person on here feels there is too much regulation, they are of course fully entitled to express the view, my view is different.  I believe that if there is a foreseeable risk, and individuals are ignorant of it, because authorities have not taken sufficient care to protect them from their ignorance then a highly regulated country such as this one could and should be held accountable. Two words - Grenfell Tower.  I know that with Carbon Monoxide, it is likely only to be the occupants of a space that will suffer, but what if the occupants included my son or daughter, visiting a friend?  Also know you cannot protect against every risk, but if there is a simple inexpensive protection, why not make it mandatory?

[Jim Riley]

14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not AFAIK. 

A smoke alarm on every storey is mandatory in rentals, and a CO alarm ONLY if there is a solid fuel appliance. No certification is required. 

??? Whose the competent gas engineer round here? Gas safety Certificate once a year. Or smacked legs!

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Jim Riley said:

??? Whose the competent gas engineer round here? Gas safety Certificate once a year. Or smacked legs!

Yes a gas safety certificate is required but the subject under discussion is smoke and CO alarms. Neither requires certification despite fitting the alarms themselves being mandatory.

Gas safety inspections cover neither CO alarms nor smoke alarms. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[artleknock]

All of these allarms, smoke and CO, are totaly usless for me. My hearing has been damaged by noise so I can't hear the high frequencies.

[Robbo]

1 hour ago, artleknock said:

All of these allarms, smoke and CO, are totaly usless for me. My hearing has been damaged by noise so I can't hear the high frequencies.

Get an alarm that’s designed for the deaf then.  No real excuse.

[Murflynn]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I am not sure what other interpretation you could put on the statements.

Taking the 'Purpose of the BSS'

"The BSS is in place to help minimise the risks to all visitors to the waterways and the waterways' workforce, and to help protect adjacent property, related to the condition, equipment and use of boats. The BSS is also used to minimise the risk of avoidable pollution from boats".

This could be written as "The BSS is a system to minimise risk to all visitors to the waterways, and the waterways' workforce and to protect adjacent property by monitoring the condition of, and type of, equipment used on boats................."

I suppose it all boils down to the definition of "visitor"

If there was any intent to include boaters then items that 'minimised the risk' would also be included, items such as sufficient ventilation, smoke alarms, Co alarms, height of thru-hull fittings above the water line, no DIY gas or electrical work, and so on.

It is not illegal to 'self-harm' and, I believe, legislation can only  be introduced to stop anyone from harming a third party.

the Purpose is also defined in your other extract (mission statement), where 'other users' are included.   I fail to see why 'visitors' and 'other users' should be read to exclude boaters, both boat-owners and their guests.  I do not understand why you quote something and then try to qualify it by pointing out that another extract appears to be slightly inconsistent with it.

................... perhaps the author of the BSS statements needs to carefully review what he has said, and ensure it is unambiguous with regard to the intent of his governing body.  Their intent may well be to exclude boaters, but for the life of me I cannot see why they would do that.     

If I had written a report like that it would have been rejected by the company directors.   My son tells me that Ron Dennis would have done the same at McLaren (in the good old days when they believed in perfection and before he was replaced and the team went to pot).

 

[Alan de Enfield]

53 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

If I had written a report like that it would have been rejected by the company directors. 

If the intention was for it to include boaters, then I too would have rejected it, had it been written by one of my employees.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not AFAIK. 

A smoke alarm on every storey is mandatory in rentals, and a CO alarm ONLY if there is a solid fuel appliance. No certification is required. 

I will have to check that out. When considering renting our house out last year I was told I needed Gas Safe and NICIEC test certs, and PAT testing was recommended. I can't recall for certain what I was told about CO alarms now. This was with a letting agency, so perhaps it was their own requirement?

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes a gas safety certificate is required but the subject under discussion is smoke and CO alarms. Neither requires certification despite fitting the alarms themselves being mandatory.

Gas safety inspections cover neither CO alarms nor smoke alarms. 

I see where you are coming from now. I wasn't clear in my post. I was meaning Gas Safe and NIC.certs. etc.
Smoke and CO alarms just need to be in date and operational IIRC.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Guest

[MtB]

On 03/02/2018 at 18:13, catweasel said:

I will have to check that out. When considering renting our house out last year I was told I needed Gas Safe and NICIEC test certs, and PAT testing was recommended. I can't recall for certain what I was told about CO alarms now. This was with a letting agency, so perhaps it was their own requirement?

 

Your letting agent is having you over. Electric stifficates are sensible but most definitely not mandatory. Gas is the only mandatory one.

[Guest]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Your letting agent is having you over. Electric stifficates are sensible but most definitely not mandatory. Gas is the only mandatory one.

Cheers, noted

[artleknock]

23 hours ago, Robbo said:

Get an alarm that’s designed for the deaf then.  No real excuse.

Do they make one that comes over and taps you on the shoulder?

[Robbo]

16 minutes ago, artleknock said:

Do they make one that comes over and taps you on the shoulder?

No but it will vibrate under your pillow, or flash you if that’s your fancy.  My smart smoke/co alarm flashes the lights, sends me a notification via phone or any other customsable action.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Robbo

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Robbo said:

No but it will vibrate under your pillow, or flash you if that’s your fancy.  My smart smoke/co alarm flashes the lights, sends me a notification via phone or any other customsable action.

It was proven last year that smoke and CO alarms don't wake kids up, but one with a voice message does. I don't know if they are commercially available 

My CO alarm went off in the lounge area where my Grandson aged 8 was sleeping, he didn't stir until after I had gone in and checked things out. 

[Robbo]

37 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It was proven last year that smoke and CO alarms don't wake kids up, but one with a voice message does. I don't know if they are commercially available 

My CO alarm went off in the lounge area where my Grandson aged 8 was sleeping, he didn't stir until after I had gone in and checked things out. 

Mine talks to me ( I have a couple of Nest Protects ), has two levels of detection/warning so if only a little smoke it will give you a heads up warning before sounding an alarm.  It speaks to you before and during the alarm and says which room has dectected the smoke/co and what type of alarm (they connect together wirelessly as well as to the WiFi).  If you have other smart stuff like heating and lighting it will switch off the heating and flash the lights red and then leave the lights red as red lit rooms are better to see in smoky environments. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Robbo

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Robbo said:

Mine talks to me ( I have a couple of Nest Protects ), has two levels of detection/warning so if only a little smoke it will give you a heads up warning before sounding an alarm.  It speaks to you before and during the alarm and says which room has dectected the smoke/co and what type of alarm (they connect together wirelessly as well as to the WiFi).  If you have other smart stuff like heating and lighting it will switch off the heating and flash the lights red and then leave the lights red as red lit rooms are better to see in smoky environments. 

Lets hope its not an electrical fire that knocks out the electricity

 

[Robbo]

30 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Lets hope its not an electrical fire that knocks out the electricity

 

They still work as the mains wired ones have a battery backup and the battery ones, er run on on battery.   They don’t need WiFi to talk to each other,  but do to send your phone a notification.  Another advantage of these, especially if your a toast burner, is that if you silence the alarm it won’t sound again two minutes down the like bog standard ones do.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Robbo