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Forth and Clyde Closure


Tim Lewis

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8 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Is this serious 13-10? Have Ladbrokes really opened a book on this event (or rather lack of it)?

Along with the three duff bridges, it does potentially represent the fourth nail in the SC coffin!

No it was poor humour. Although thinking about it I might pop down the bookies tomorrow, might make a few quid out of SC's ineptitude

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Those on the Union Canal, and down at Grangemouth, could play on it to their hearts content Ronnie. And the trip boats, based at the wheel, upon which SC rely on for a chunk of their income might want to indulge in a regular whirl!

If it stays closed then the trip boat franchise that SC has just taken on is dead in the water. It was looking pretty sick with the bridges closed, the implication being that effectively there was only half a week's cruising available to hirers: not something many people would want to pay the substantial hire fees for I suspect!

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1 minute ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Those on the Union Canal, and down at Grangemouth, could play on it to their hearts content Ronnie. And the trip boats, based at the wheel, upon which SC rely on for a chunk of their income might want to indulge in a regular whirl!

If it stays closed then the trip boat franchise that SC has just taken on is dead in the water. It was looking pretty sick with the bridges closed, the implication being that effectively there was only half a week's cruising available to hirers: not something many people would want to pay the substantial hire fees for I suspect!

True, but I can't see it being the most thrilling of rides.  :D

I've not had a chance to look at the dud bridges on a map yet, but I take it a hire boat at the moment couldn't do the full run from Edinburgh to Glasgow?

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12 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

True, but I can't see it being the most thrilling of rides.  :D

I've not had a chance to look at the dud bridges on a map yet, but I take it a hire boat at the moment couldn't do the full run from Edinburgh to Glasgow?

No a hire boat could go into Edinburgh and back and down to the Kelpies and back. That's it. 

Haggis

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24 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Those on the Union Canal, and down at Grangemouth, could play on it to their hearts content Ronnie. And the trip boats, based at the wheel, upon which SC rely on for a chunk of their income might want to indulge in a regular whirl!

If it stays closed then the trip boat franchise that SC has just taken on is dead in the water. It was looking pretty sick with the bridges closed, the implication being that effectively there was only half a week's cruising available to hirers: not something many people would want to pay the substantial hire fees for I suspect!

I don't know the conditions of hiring but I wonder when hirers have to pay the full amount by and what cancellation conditions are (probably they only get something back if the boat can be hired out for the time). I am sure hirers will get nothing back just because they are limited on where they can cruise as I think it highly unlikely that this will be a condition included in the hire. A bit like folk who moor on the canals. Paying a licence only allows you to put a boat on the water, it doesn't say you must be able to boat anywhere. 

As far as I understand, most of the 2018 bookings were made last year. 

haggis

Edited by haggis
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11 minutes ago, haggis said:

No a hire boat could go into Edinburgh and back and down to the Kelpies and back. That's it. 

Haggis

And if all the hire boats are stuck on that stretch I can't see it being very pleasant, I've got visions of spending the summer queuing to get anywhere

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10 minutes ago, haggis said:

No a hire boat could go into Edinburgh and back and down to the Kelpies and back. That's it. 

Haggis

Yeah, that sounds like a bit of a sore one for the hire boats. :(

Out of curiosity: I wonder which is more popular; going from hire HQ to Edinburgh, or hire HQ to Glasgow?

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20 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

Yeah, that sounds like a bit of a sore one for the hire boats. :(

Out of curiosity: I wonder which is more popular; going from hire HQ to Edinburgh, or hire HQ to Glasgow?

I would have thought Glasgow as F&C is a much wider canal

Edited by 13-10
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25 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

Yeah, but I wonder which way is more popular: to Glasgow, or to Edinburgh?

Typical cruising pattern for hirers is Union Canal to Edinburgh and back in the first half of the week and then head west on the Forth & Clyde to either Auchinstarry or Glasgow depending upon energy and inclination. The trip down the locks to the Kelpies is a lot of hard work for very little return in many hirer's eyes. Easier to hop on a bus!

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26 minutes ago, 13-10 said:

I would have thought Glasgow as F&C is a much wider canal

Not sure about that! I think most boaters want to experience the Wheel so they start the journey by going into Edinburgh which puts a bit of a strain on the visitor moorings as they all set off the same day. As they won't be able to go to Glasgow there will be far more boats going down to the Kelpies, I imagine, which will put more pressure on the volunteer lockies.  

haggis

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On 15/02/2018 at 11:02, magpie patrick said:

it's very difficult to quantify what the economic benefits would be if the same waterway were not navigable without completely redoing the exercise although some work suggests that navigability adds around 30%. The point is, if the canals are not navigable, the benefits forecast, and currently being achieved will change: I've yet to see a non-navigable canal outperform a navigable one so the benefits will go down.

Out of interest, has anyone ever researched what would happen if a restored canal were to close?   Assuming that closure would result in significantly lower maintenance, how quickly would the degraded environment have an effect on canalside property values - particularly on properties built since the restoration?

The photo attached is of Temple Locks in the west end of Glasgow in 1971 - just 8 years after the canal was closed.   There is now a very nice new pub/restaurant beside this lock. 

Temple 1971 (Small).jpg

 

pub.jpg

Edited by Waterway2go
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1 hour ago, Waterway2go said:

Out of interest, has anyone ever researched what would happen if a restored canal were to close?   

Would they be allowed to close them without an Act of Parliament?  I know that is a technicality if the bridges don't work, but they needed an act to remainder the canals last time.

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8 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Would they be allowed to close them without an Act of Parliament?  I know that is a technicality if the bridges don't work, but they needed an act to remainder the canals last time.

An interesting question which I am unable to answer. But I can say that anyone hoping to answer it should bear in mind that Scotland has its own legal system, so while many Acts of Parliament apply across the UK, what applies in English law may not apply to the Forth and Clyde.

From my long distance it does look as if this Scottish Canals lot see themselves as just a property company and are content to let maintenance drift, sitting on the money in the hope that the Scottish Parliament will stump up extra money for the repairs, and only intervention by the politicians to install better management is going to solve the problem. What this needs is for some major newspaper in Scotland to really run with the story and pile some pressure on, I wish you all well.

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14 minutes ago, Peter X said:

An interesting question which I am unable to answer. But I can say that anyone hoping to answer it should bear in mind that Scotland has its own legal system, so while many Acts of Parliament apply across the UK, what applies in English law may not apply to the Forth and Clyde.

From my long distance it does look as if this Scottish Canals lot see themselves as just a property company and are content to let maintenance drift, sitting on the money in the hope that the Scottish Parliament will stump up extra money for the repairs, and only intervention by the politicians to install better management is going to solve the problem. What this needs is for some major newspaper in Scotland to really run with the story and pile some pressure on, I wish you all well.

Your perspective Peter X is refreshing and, in my opinion, bang on the money!

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14 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Would they be allowed to close them without an Act of Parliament?  I know that is a technicality if the bridges don't work, but they needed an act to remainder the canals last time.

Part of the millennium legislation was the reclassification of the Edinburgh & Glasgow Union and Forth & Clyde from "remainder" to "cruising"  waterways. Scottish Canals therefore have a duty to maintain them, under Sec. 105 of the Transport Act 1968.

Enforcing that duty, however, is not simple, unless the Scottish Transport Minister sees fit to get involved. Failing that, it would be possible to seek an order before the Court of Session (equivalent of High Court), but it would be necessary to prove " a serious and persistent failure by the Waterways Board to discharge the duty imposed on them by

(a)subsection (1) of section 105 of this Act, ", and there is a get out in that the Transport Minister can sign a certificate stating  " that the imposition of any requirement on the Board on the basis of their existing duty would result in their incurring substantial expense and that, having regard to their financial position and their duty under section 18 of the Act of 1962 and section 41 of this Act, it would be unreasonable for them to bear that expense without a grant or further grant under section 43 of this Act." 

As the said expense would be paid by the Scottish Government, it is likely that such a certificate would be forthcoming, IMO.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 26/02/2018 at 00:11, Waterway2go said:

Out of interest, has anyone ever researched what would happen if a restored canal were to close?   Assuming that closure would result in significantly lower maintenance, how quickly would the degraded environment have an effect on canalside property values - particularly on properties built since the restoration?

The photo attached is of Temple Locks in the west end of Glasgow in 1971 - just 8 years after the canal was closed.   There is now a very nice new pub/restaurant beside this lock. 

Temple 1971 (Small).jpg

 

pub.jpg

Sadly the pub closed before Christmas adding to the air of dereliction and decay that is already starting to creep in. At least come spring with the grass growing and some leaves on the trees things will look better although there may well be no boat movement.

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19 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Sadly the pub closed before Christmas adding to the air of dereliction and decay that is already starting to creep in. At least come spring with the grass growing and some leaves on the trees things will look better although there may well be no boat movement.

Christ. What happened to them? The place was always chock-a-block during summer when I'd cycle past in the evening.

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15 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

Christ. What happened to them? The place was always chock-a-block during summer when I'd cycle past in the evening.

I heard but a garbled account today which I feel unable to recount with any degree of accuracy I'm afraid. There also used to be a restaurant (and possibly micro brewery?) beside the road, next to the the Lock 27 pub when the canal first re-opened. The building is pretty derelict now so I wonder what happened to that.

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