Are the Canals going to Last?

[Irob]

Having been living overseas many years I come back recently to re-establish myself,( part time summers only just now, )  and could not face the rat race that I have perceived deteriorating so much in the urban UK over 30 years away, so I chose the canal lifestyle. I love it. I remember coventry arm and basin in the 60,s as a kid, disused and full of rubbish. I cruise it regularly now and my life is better for it.  Thankyou volunteers, coventry council, BW and CART.  The future is not here yet,  there are concerns and forwarned is forarmed so we continue monitoring and adapting.  I,m interested if we might form 'neighbourhood watches' or local boater communities to watch and tend our local stretches ?

[brassedoff]

13 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

 

If things have really gone 'orrid for OP in such a short time I wonder if perhaps he had an inaccurate view of it all before he got involved. 

 

No on the contrary, I love every bit of living aboard my narrowboat,  its been a positive move in every way and thats why I posted my concern.

 

I don't want it to end. I love it....

Edited February 1, 2018 by brassedoff

[haggis]

We have a boat in both Scotland and England and I know where we do almost all of our boating and enjoy being able to boat virtually where and when we want. OK there are sometimes stoppages which have to be worked round but no one is telling us that we can only go through a lock or lift bridge when we are told 

The latest news is that the Forth and Clyde canal will be virtually closed indefinitely as two lift bridges need repairing and there is no money

Apparently these bridges have been causing a problem for a while and have only been opened when engineers are there. Odd that there was money to send canal staff to the world canal conference yet there was no money to fix a bridge 

And you think you have problems down south? 

Haggis 

 

 

[Athy]

3 hours ago, Dave_P said:

Virtual greenie from one mod to another.

.

And another from another.

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Irob said:

Having been living overseas many years I come back recently to re-establish myself,( part time summers only just now, )  and could not face the rat race that I have perceived deteriorating so much in the urban UK over 30 years away, so I chose the canal lifestyle. I love it. I remember coventry arm and basin in the 60,s as a kid, disused and full of rubbish. I cruise it regularly now and my life is better for it.  Thankyou volunteers, coventry council, BW and CART.  The future is not here yet,  there are concerns and forwarned is forarmed so we continue monitoring and adapting.  I,m interested if we might form 'neighbourhood watches' or local boater communities to watch and tend our local stretches ?

Did you watch the news last night? Quite a big article on with the police in Birmingham who with others have indeed launched " Boat watch " to cover ertain areas. They stated would be rolling it out in the force area iirc. Cant remember which news but it was only yesterday evening so should be available on catch up 

[Dave_P]

25 minutes ago, Athy said:

And another from another.

Group hug?

[Mad Harold]

5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So you expect the planned withdrawal of government funding for CRT shortly to make no difference?

You could well turn out to be right but it will be touch and go, just like 50 years ago. 

As someone wise once said, it take a lot of hard work by a lot of people to make the inevitable happen.

Is this true? If so CRT can't possibly maintain our canals.

Some time ago, I sent an e mail to my local MP expressing concern about the low water levels in the Huddersfield Narrow.She did contact CRT and was given the reasons; leaks in the canal wall,a finite water supply in the feeder reservoirs,and leaking locks.CRT said they were working on these problems ASAP.

I think the question of funding the CRT needs to be raised with our elected representatives,and perhaps when they realise that it's not just boater's votes that are at stake here,but countless thousands of others [dog walkers,joggers,ramblers,fishers,and others who enjoy the canals] then serious questions may be asked of the government about funding this wonderful leisure resource. 

[Irob]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Did you watch the news last night? Quite a big article on with the police in Birmingham who with others have indeed launched " Boat watch " to cover ertain areas. They stated would be rolling it out in the force area iirc. Cant remember which news but it was only yesterday evening so should be available on catch up 

Thanks but didnt see it as i,m overseas drowning in monsoons and growing mushrooms in delicate places.  I was wondering at the prospect of boaters adopting and servicing their stretch of cut as a local group under some sort of CART control or approval. How does some smart folks dredge a local mudbank or lop off some overhead branches, paint a lock beam etc. ?

[Alan de Enfield]

42 minutes ago, Furness said:

Is this true? If so CRT can't possibly maintain our canals.

Yes it is,

The Government supports C&RT to the tune of £39 million per annum + £10 million per annum bonus for achieving key targets. This is all being withdrawn in 2026/7 by which time it is expected that C&RT will be 'self funding'.

One of the KPI's (3:1) is to get more 'public usage' - This is the reason that C&RT now claim impossible figures for 'canal users' rising by roughly 100 million every year until it has now reached a figure of 500 million visitors per annum which works out at a ludicrous figure - 684 visits per mile, per day. That's every day Summer & Winter, Rain, Snow or Sunshine for EVERY mile of River and Canal - the Government appear not to actually 'measure' the KPI's and just accept C&RTs claim and pay them their £10m bonus.

 

C&RTs KPI's do not appear to relate to boats or navigation - they are primarily (full list below) related to Towpath use, Improvement of SSSI's, Number of Volunteer hours, & Flood Management.

Schedule 5: Publication Data
1. The NSS.
2. Data relating to safety:
2.1 the number of reported incidents involving customers relating to infrastructure failure;
2.2 the number of reported incidents involving employees ; and
2.3 the actual outcome (expressed as a headline percentage figure) of the applicable measurement for the Safe Waterways Relevant Standard.

3. Data relating to towpaths:
3.1 the number of towpath visitors (based on annual survey data);
3.2 the number and duration of unplanned closures; and
3.3 the actual outcome (expressed as a headline percentage figure) of the applicable measurement for the Towpath Condition Relevant Standard.

4. Data relating to flood management:
4.1 the actual outcome (expressed as a headline percentage figure) of the applicable measurement for the Flood Management Relevant Standard.

5. Data on Sites of Special Scientific Interest (“SSSIs”):
5.1 based on published data, the percentage area of SSSIs under CRT management in good or recovering condition.

6. Data on heritage:
6.1 a percentage of heritage assets assessed on completion of work as good or adequate, with double weighting given to good assessments.

7. Data on volunteer participation:
7.1 the number of volunteer days contributed to CRT.

8. Data on housing forecast figures.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Captain Pegg]

If you were to cast a professional eye over the asset management of canals the primary measures would be in terms of something like;-

Population - overall network mileage

Capability - extent of the network able to handle craft of certain beam, draft and air draft characteristics

Capacity - the number of boats that can transit between given points in a given time period

Availability - number, duration and extent of planned and unplanned stoppages

Reliability - number, duration and extent of incidents where capability and/or capacity is restricted (not including planned stoppages)

 

I suspect the long term trends in pretty much all of these are currently static or positive. The network has grown significantly in the last 50 years and the more recent reopenings probably give a larger proportion of wide beam capable canals. Capability and capacity tends not to change for existing waterways and although unplanned stoppages do occur I wouldn't put any money them being more frequent in recent times. In my hire boating days I suffered one in 1998 and one in 2015. I haven't had any issues since buying a boat. In addition to unplanned stoppages reliability is things like out of use of use paddles and obstructions such as overhanging or fallen vegetation.

Beneath those factors are indicators such as volume of maintenance and repair activity and backlog of work. That is backed up by assurance work that looks at the quality and effectiveness of maintenance and repair. The volume of backlog I have seen quoted appears to be massive in relation to the number of incidents that affect boaters. This suggests that CRT may not be as good as they could be at identifying, planning and correctly executing critical maintenance and repair work. That's what modern asset management techniques aim to do but I don't think we should be surprised that CRT may not be at forefront of that field. The nature of their assets and the commercial environment don't drive things that way. Issues with execution of work aren't new, whether done in house or contracted or whether it's quality or productivity. I suspect rising costs will be of concern to CRT presently.

It may just be there are harder times ahead in respect of funding but I can't see that is an absolute threat to the future of canals. Neither do I think canals will be allowed to fall into disrepair but there will be fluctuations in overall condition and canals will always be at the whim of politicians as they will always be subsidised by one means or another.

So room for improvement? Definitely. Cause for doom and gloom? I don't think so.

JP

 

[andy3196]

48 minutes ago, Furness said:

Is this true?

Nobody knows what the situation will be after the current funding agreement ends will be. As part of that agreement, there will be a review of ongoing funding in a few years time. The agreement is at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/canal-river-trust-grant-agreement-with-defra and the relevant clause states:

" 9.3  Notwithstanding the regular content and cycle of Review Meetings, in the financial year 2021/22 a review will take place to consider whether, and if so, the extent to which there is a case to continue to support by Grant the public benefits (including, but not by way of limitation, provision of land drainage, flood mitigation and other public safety benefits) provided by the waterways under CRT’s stewardship beyond the end of the Grant Period. The 2021/22 Review shall take into account, among other matters, CRT’s performance of its obligations arising under the Grant Agreement. Defra shall issue a report setting out the conclusions of this review with regard to continued support of CRT by Grant beyond the term of this Grant Agreement on or before 1 July 2022. "

[zenataomm]

2 hours ago, brassedoff said:

No on the contrary, I love every bit of living aboard my narrowboat,  its been a positive move in every way and thats why I posted my concern.

 

I don't want it to end. I love it....

Strewth ...... You're worrying yourself about what might be.

[brassedoff]

33 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

Strewth ...... You're worrying yourself about what might be.

Yer but it might be. Lol

[Philip]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

100% in agreement, but the enthusiasm (or money) ran out - look at the situation since the 80s, there has been localised work ongoing (Monty, Chesterfied etc) but generally there has been, (in my opinion), an ongoing decline in the quality of the waterways infrastructure, and no sign of a turnaround.

Just using my local canal (to where I keep my boat) as an example; during this current off-season there have been 4 locks along the cut which have had new gates installed at both ends and there are now very few locks along here with gates older than 20 years, aside from the steel gates. They do seem to like to keep on top of it to be fair on this one (it's popular!) compared to others, but I certainly wouldn't say standards are slipping in infrastructure. If anything wooden gates are being replaced too soon; 20-25 year lifespan currently and still mostly in reasonable nick when replaced, 10-15 years ago there were some gates from the 50s knocking around.

[Iain_S]

7 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

(snip)

But the same people now sulk about an overhanging tree or a "CRT Aware" sign on a ground paddle.

I doubt it's the same people.

 

[13-10]

2 hours ago, haggis said:

We have a boat in both Scotland and England and I know where we do almost all of our boating and enjoy being able to boat virtually where and when we want. OK there are sometimes stoppages which have to be worked round but no one is telling us that we can only go through a lock or lift bridge when we are told 

The latest news is that the Forth and Clyde canal will be virtually closed indefinitely as two lift bridges need repairing and there is no money

Apparently these bridges have been causing a problem for a while and have only been opened when engineers are there. Odd that there was money to send canal staff to the world canal conference yet there was no money to fix a bridge 

And you think you have problems down south? 

Haggis 

 

 

And they're so well organised their own passenger boat is now stuck!!!!

[Iain_S]

8 hours ago, LadyG said:

I don't have any real understanding of the issues, the problems, or the solutions, nor am I the person who can influence or persuade.

(snip)

It is the nature of Registered Charities that they are run almost like businesses, but not run by businessmen. They lack the goals, and they lack vision. They lose sight of the fundamentals, this is what is has happened.

Not necessarily true. Snag with busissmen is that they tend to run businesses for themselves, awarding themselves unjustified pay rises and bonuses. As is the case with CaRT, and also Scottish Canals (not a charity). 

Mainly true of large businesses: small ones have management closer to the coalface.

[alan_fincher]

23 minutes ago, Philip said:

Just using my local canal (to where I keep my boat) as an example; during this current off-season there have been 4 locks along the cut which have had new gates installed at both ends and there are now very few locks along here with gates older than 20 years, aside from the steel gates. They do seem to like to keep on top of it to be fair on this one (it's popular!) compared to others, but I certainly wouldn't say standards are slipping in infrastructure. If anything wooden gates are being replaced too soon; 20-25 year lifespan currently and still mostly in reasonable nick when replaced, 10-15 years ago there were some gates from the 50s knocking around.

You are lucky if that is the situation on your local canal.

I have sat in meetings where it has been made very clear that the rate of gate replacement across the country, has had to be cut dramatically, and that is certainly the evidence on the lower GU now.  There is now far too much emergency reactive work after rotten balance beams crash to the ground, or heel posts fail.  (Fortunately I'm not aware yet of anybody injured as a result, but it is undeniably an increasing possibility).

Another issue down here is a large number of locks all vying to get on the list for grouting in a bid to stop leakage through the walls.  For this they are competing against all other required work nationally, and, (other than a very few), generally not getting the funding.  Sooner or later another wall collapse at one of the affected locks seems a strong possibility.

The CRT permanent mooring site where I used to keep Sickle had a major bank collapse quite a few yeras back now, and for several years after CRT came in to being was proudly presented by the local manager as one of the works that would go ahead and be funded in the current year.  It never was of course, and I doubt ever will be until the situation worsens just beyond a bank collapse that now prevents severable of the available moorings being able to be let.

The infrastructure on the GU South of Milton Keynes has certainly deteriorated a great deal since CRT took over, in my view.  Once it was one of the better maintained, but it certainly doesn't seem to be any more.

[JamesFrance]

Fifty years ago there were very few people using the canals.   Two examples from 1968 were taking a new hire boat to the end of the Rufford branch which meant that BW sent someone round to grease all the paddles as we were the first boat for a year to go along there.   The other was draining a pound on the Llangollen to refloat a boat sunk in one of the locks which BW never  even knew about.

Today there are hordes of people with some interest in the canals so I wouldn't worry about the future.

[Captain Pegg]

48 minutes ago, Philip said:

Just using my local canal (to where I keep my boat) as an example; during this current off-season there have been 4 locks along the cut which have had new gates installed at both ends and there are now very few locks along here with gates older than 20 years, aside from the steel gates. They do seem to like to keep on top of it to be fair on this one (it's popular!) compared to others, but I certainly wouldn't say standards are slipping in infrastructure. If anything wooden gates are being replaced too soon; 20-25 year lifespan currently and still mostly in reasonable nick when replaced, 10-15 years ago there were some gates from the 50s knocking around.

I suspect the FSC accredited timber now used is inferior to that used 50 years ago. I too have observed replaced gates that on the surface look fairly sound. I wonder if CRT use a penetration test to validate the need for replacement. It is entirely possible for an externally sound looking gate to be life expired.

JP

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Philip said:

Just using my local canal (to where I keep my boat) as an example; during this current off-season there have been 4 locks along the cut which have had new gates installed at both ends and there are now very few locks along here with gates older than 20 years, aside from the steel gates. They do seem to like to keep on top of it to be fair on this one (it's popular!) compared to others, but I certainly wouldn't say standards are slipping in infrastructure. If anything wooden gates are being replaced too soon; 20-25 year lifespan currently and still mostly in reasonable nick when replaced, 10-15 years ago there were some gates from the 50s knocking around.

When I started boating round the BCN in the mid 70s there were a few gates with pre WW1 dates dates carved in them. So they must have been 60+ years old. 

Mind you, they were probably well impregnated with all sorts of stuff that would inhibit the normal biological degradation processes.

[Movin' on]

58 minutes ago, JamesFrance said:

Fifty years ago there were very few people using the canals.......today there are hordes of people 

presumably this is why you are in Carcassonne! 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Halsey

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Iain_S said:

Not necessarily true. Snag with busissmen is that they tend to run businesses for themselves, awarding themselves unjustified pay rises and bonuses. As is the case with CaRT, and also Scottish Canals (not a charity). 

Mainly true of large businesses: small ones have management closer to the coalface.

err, yes, I am not talking about small one man family type businesses. I am not sure what your point is.

Edited February 1, 2018 by LadyG

[GUMPY]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

The infrastructure on the GU South of Milton Keynes has certainly deteriorated a great deal since CRT took over, in my view.  Once it was one of the better maintained, but it certainly doesn't seem to be any more.

Very true the state of the canal is appaling compared to 15-20 years ago.

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

err, yes, I am not talking about small one man family type businesses. I am not sure what your point is.

I accept that a charity in its development needs people with business experience to develop its commercial arms and develop a strategy to achieve the charity's objectives. However, these business experienced persons are likely to be very interested in the ultimate aims of the charity, and may well be donating their time and expertise. Once the charity is large enough, or if it is a large organisation which transforms itself into a charity, the motivation of persons joining it at the top changes : their interests are not those of the charity, but are those of themselves. CaRT (and Scottish Canals!) might perform better if those at the top were passionate about canals, rather than their careers.