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Are the Canals going to Last?


brassedoff

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It would be foolish not to be concerned about the future, especially as C&RT are losing the hands-on knowledge and expertise, and increasingly relying on contractors, and office bound computer analysts.

But the system is still there and working, and lots of us care and monitor what's happening (and let our feelings be known to C&RT) ?

The sun's out and it's cruising time.

Rog

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This looks to me like a typical mid-winter thread.  Everyone being miserable and negative.  It's understandable, and it's human nature.  I too can see plenty of problems coming down the pipeline and adequate funding is the biggest one.

However, the canals today are in far, far better shape than they were from the 30s to the 60s.  Canal restorations continue and there has never been more general interest from the wider public in the canal environment.  The number of stakeholders with a vested interest in keeping canals running continues to grow.  The towpath improvements to benefit cyclists may be controversial to boaters in some ways but having another powerful lobby to fight for the canals is no bad thing overall.  Property developers continue to fight for canal side land to develop on.  TV shows regularly sing the praises of canals and boating.  Hire companies (in the main) continue to thrive.

My prediction is that a breaking point for maintenance of navigation will be likely to occur sometime within the next 10 year.  This may take the form of a major breach or infrastructure collapse in one or more location, with CRT unable to fund the repairs, and those spots becoming un-navigable indefinitely.   This will bring public awareness of the funding shortfall and the decline of canals for navigation and then real change will occur.  Who knows what that change will be, but there are simply too many vested interests now for the canal infrastructure to be allowed to collapse nationally.  If we have a government which is prepared to fund the canals for the wider good then they may bring them back under some form of state control and funding.  If not, then another change in how the canals are funded will arise.  

Roll on spring, roll on warm sunny days, when we're reminded of how wonderful our canals are.

 

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It's easy to forget that even major canals, such as the kennet and Avon were derelict until the '90's, and large parts of the Bcn were far worse than they are today-with the Bcn challenge keeping many lesser used stretches navigable. Apart from the obvious shortcomings of Crt, I think the percentage of canal users that are passionate about the system has diminished, with many using it as an affordable alternative accommodation, with some even scornful of those that embrace the traditions. This has more impact in some areas than others. 

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29 minutes ago, Athy said:

I agree with Rachel. After all, many of our canals have been there for over 200 years, sometimes weathering hard times, and they are still open. There is no reason for that situation to change.

 

So you expect the planned withdrawal of government funding for CRT shortly to make no difference?

You could well turn out to be right but it will be touch and go, just like 50 years ago. 

As someone wise once said, it take a lot of hard work by a lot of people to make the inevitable happen.

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30 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

How much have you personally tried to influence / change how CRT (and BW before them) have operated over the last few years?

I have been trying to, both just as a licence holder, but also as part of a CRT advisory group - trying quite hard in fact, and for some years.

Yes, you may influence a bit, but you'll be lucky to do much more than try to halt a few bad ideas, in my experience.  Producing real change to an organisation with so much "history" is a nightmare.  So much resource is wasted on things of little matter, while big problems go largely unaddressed.

I would be interested to those who really believe they have been able to make major impacts, and what those major impacts actually were.

I don't have any real understanding of the issues, the problems, or the solutions, nor am I the person who can influence or persuade.

It is obvious that the boaters on here are extremely concerned about the way things have gone since the  demise of BW. 

If you have tried to change things, and have been frustrated to the point of resignation then another approach is needed. A Political approach. The government is unrealistc [in its expectations of self generation funding],   but this must be the way.

It is the nature of Registered Charities that they are run almost like businesses, but not run by businessmen. They lack the goals, and they lack vision. They lose sight of the fundamentals, this is what is has happened.

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There are canals now that were dead when we started, Kennet, Rochdale, Huddersfield droitwich to name a few. None have closed since we started.

yes there were lengthsmen yes bits were deeper yes there were less boats, yes you could name all the boats residential south of cowley lock.

on the other hand most of birmingham and London were risky single handed and leaving an unattended boat no way. 

So its changed opening up the towpaths has been brilliant- you used to be locked in with the hoodlums at times, and as for the hordes of angry fishists

its different and it will change again

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I do find it interesting that some of those who were boating in the 70's have plenty of stories about carrying sheets of plywood with them to act as a temporary paddle, or how to make a gate seal with a cabin shaft and the ashpan.

Lots of tales about how difficult it was to navigate the system, lots of enthusiasm for doing their own repairs.

But the same people now sulk about an overhanging tree or a "CRT Aware" sign on a ground paddle.

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So you expect the planned withdrawal of government funding for CRT shortly to make no difference?

You could well turn out to be right but it will be touch and go, just like 50 years ago. 

As someone wise once said, it take a lot of hard work by a lot of people to make the inevitable happen.

So even with a grant of £39 million per annum, + £10 million per annum if targets are reached, C&RT have insufficient income to maintain the waterways, how do they expect to 

1) Manage without it, &

2) find a replacement source of income of similar, or greater value

 

2 GRANT
2.1 Subject to the terms of this Grant Agreement, Defra shall pay to CRT the Grant as set out below.
2.2 Part A Core Grant The parties agree that Part A Core Grant shall be calculated as follows:
2.2.1 £39,000,000 in financial year 2012/13 (being a flat sum, not inflated), less any grant in aid paid by Defra to the British Waterways Board in respect of that financial year. 
2.2.2 £39,000,000 per annum in financial years 2013/14 and 2014/15 (being a flat sum, not inflated), of which £3,000,000 (the “First Part B Tranche”) will be subject to the conditions precedent to grant set out in Clause 6.3 and the same remedies and other conditions as apply to Part B Conditional Grant.
2.2.3 £39,000,000 per annum in financial year 2015/16 and thereafter until financial year 2026/27 inclusive:
(a) to be adjusted annually in accordance with the indexation methodology set out in Schedule 1 (Indexation of Part A Core Grant) from financial year 2015/2016, using financial year 2014/15 as the base year in the first instance; and
(b) if applicable in accordance with Clause 2.3.2(b), an amount of which (being an amount below £4,000,000) is subject to the same conditions precedent to grant, available remedies and other conditions as Part B Conditional Grant.

 

2.3 Part B Conditional Grant (flat sum, not inflated)
2.3.1 The parties agree that Part B Conditional Grant shall be calculated as follows:
(a) Subject to satisfaction of the requirements of Clause 6.4, £10,000,000 per annum from financial year 2015/16 until financial year 2021/2022 inclusive.
(b) Subject to satisfaction of the requirements of Clause 6.4, from financial year 2022/23 until financial year 2026/27 inclusive, £10,000,000 per annum, less the difference between: (i) the amount of the Part A Core Grant in the financial year 2021/22; and 
 
7
(ii) the amount of the Part A Core Grant in the financial year in question,
being the “Relevant Part B Conditional Grant” for the purposes of this Clause 2.3

6.4 Conditions Precedent to Part B Conditional Grant 
CRT shall deliver evidence to Defra on or before 1 July in each year, starting on 1 July 2015, in a form that provides reasonable and proportionate assurance, that the Relevant Standards have been met. 

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9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

One thing I learnt (it stuck with me) from a very expensive Management Course was :

"Don't worry about anything you cannot change or influence"

"Co-Operate with the inevitable - there are some things you cannot control. Accept them and plan how to deal with them so you can move on".

The canals as we know them are probably not going to exist much longer - There is no longer an effective Boating IWA, there is no 'cheer-leader' for the canals, people are now too insular in their lives, & there are too many divisive issues.

It is going to happen so why worry about it, get on and worry about things that you can have some effect on.

 

This is the problem right across the board especially the bit in green. We are all too worried about what happens to us within our own four walls and not about what is happening outside but which could affect us just as much or even more. The IWA have become completely ineffective after being the voice that saved the canals in the first place. The Canal and River Trust do not have the money nor the will to stop the rot. People like myself have come away from the canals because of the decline and the fact that boaters seem to be not wanted on the canals and the cost of being on the canals just goes up and up without any tangible benefits of those increased costs. The various organisations that represent various aspects of canal users all seem to be working against each other where, in fact, they should be working together. I volunteer for the Canal and River Explorers. Yes people laugh at us in our bright green uniforms and ask why the Canal and River Trust are wasting money on things like Explorers etc. We talk to youngsters about water safety, which I believe is the most important aspect of our work, but we also talk about the history of the canals. We use interactive methods to try to get the kids interested in why the canals are here in the first place, why they went into decline, how they were saved for leisure, how there now more boats on teh canals than there ever were back in the industrial days etc etc etc. The hope is that the up and coming generation will take an interest in the canals and when they get older will actively want to participate in the upkeep and well being of our canal system and not allow it to succumb to the builders of houses etc.

As I say people laugh at the CRT volunteers. As volunteers we don't always get it right but we do it because whilst we, especially I, see huge problems with the way the canals are run and, to be honest, I cannot see much of a future for our canals at the moment, we do it because we want to see the canals flourish. The problem, there are not enough people who want to do this work for nothing. Basically what I am saying is that YES we can keep the canals. Yes we can mend and improve what we have got. It will take money but nobody is going to give us that money unless they can see that people are interested in the canals.

Okay I came away from the canals as far as boating is concerned. I wasn't happy about the way the huge amount of money I was putting into the system was being spent. I decided to go down another route of education. Rightly or wrongly only time will tell. My experience so far on the education side has been extremely positive but these are little kids. Whether any of them will retain what we talk to them about is anyone's guess. Hopefully they will and when they get older some of them will have the passion to stand up and say "LEAVE OUR CANALS ALONE." Hopefully we will still have some canals left to get passionate about.

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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I don't have any real understanding of the issues, the problems, or the solutions, nor am I the person who can influence or persuade.

It is obvious that the boaters on here are extremely concerned about the way things have gone since the  demise of BW. 

 

The people who moan about CART now are the same people who moaned about BW.

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Look backwards and look forwards

I was born in 1966, Lutine was built in 1972. In the last three years Lutine has been as far north as Hyde and as far south as Dundas Aqueduct and the Somerset Coal Canal

In 1966 Marple Aqueduct was threatened with demolition, in 1972 the Peak Forest was still unnavigable north of Marple Junction and the Kennet and Avon was largely unnavigable, in her Maiden year Lutine might have got as far as Theale, about six miles from Reading

On my shelves is a 1964 report from BWB which seriously considers closing the following amongst others

*The Trent and Mersey between Hardings Wood and Great Haywood

*The Worcester and Birmingham between Diglis Basin and Tardebigge

*Most of the Leeds and Liverpool

I've just found a photo album from 1986, a cruise on the Llangollen, in it are photos of the Mongtomery Canal at Frankton, dry canal, derelict locks. There is also a picture of a lift bridge near Whixall that had collapsed and was just a tangle of wood and metal.

In my lifetime Blisworth, Netherton, Harecastle and Foulridge Tunnels have all had long term closures, months stretching into years. Preston Brook Tunnel has collapsed as has Wast Hill, the latter killing two workmen

The Brecon and Abergavenny has breached twice, or is three times, each time people wandered whether it was the end.

How many locks have collapsed? more than ten, possibly more than twenty. 

And yet, we have more water to cruise than we've ever had. 

Just think, the 1955 National Rally was in Banbury, to save the Oxford Canal!

Some things are slipping, but they are slipping from a much higher standard than they were twenty years ago, and certainly fifty years ago. The end has always been nigh, I don't think it's any more nigh now

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9 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Look backwards and look forwards

I was born in 1966, Lutine was built in 1972. In the last three years Lutine has been as far north as Hyde and as far south as Dundas Aqueduct and the Somerset Coal Canal

In 1966 Marple Aqueduct was threatened with demolition, in 1972 the Peak Forest was still unnavigable north of Marple Junction and the Kennet and Avon was largely unnavigable, in her Maiden year Lutine might have got as far as Theale, about six miles from Reading

On my shelves is a 1964 report from BWB which seriously considers closing the following amongst others

*The Trent and Mersey between Hardings Wood and Great Haywood

*The Worcester and Birmingham between Diglis Basin and Tardebigge

*Most of the Leeds and Liverpool

I've just found a photo album from 1986, a cruise on the Llangollen, in it are photos of the Mongtomery Canal at Frankton, dry canal, derelict locks. There is also a picture of a lift bridge near Whixall that had collapsed and was just a tangle of wood and metal.

In my lifetime Blisworth, Netherton, Harecastle and Foulridge Tunnels have all had long term closures, months stretching into years. Preston Brook Tunnel has collapsed as has Wast Hill, the latter killing two workmen

The Brecon and Abergavenny has breached twice, or is three times, each time people wandered whether it was the end.

How many locks have collapsed? more than ten, possibly more than twenty. 

And yet, we have more water to cruise than we've ever had. 

Just think, the 1955 National Rally was in Banbury, to save the Oxford Canal!

Some things are slipping, but they are slipping from a much higher standard than they were twenty years ago, and certainly fifty years ago. The end has always been nigh, I don't think it's any more nigh now

Virtual greenie from one mod to another.

There will always be doomsayers.  Occasionally they're right, often they're not.  The big picture currently gives plenty to be hopeful about.

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51 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

The people who moan about CART now are the same people who moaned about BW.

Not strictly true, of course.  I'm certain many of the London live-aboards now taking up the anti-CRT rallying cry of the NBTA, didn't even own boats in BW days!

We actually have a whole new breed of moaners to join the more long standing ones!

Edited by alan_fincher
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7 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Not strictly true, of course.  I'm certain many of the London live-aboards now taking up the anti-CRT rallying cry of the NBTA, didn't even own boats in BW days!

We actually have a whole new breed of moaners to joi the more long standing ones!

Didn't BW have a spree of enforcing 120 *different* lock-miles every 3 months on CCers about 15 years ago?

As opposed to CRT with their highly unfair 20 miles a year nonsense. 

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I think it comes down to how you view the situation and how easily you can adapt. Many of the negatives I read about when researching living on the water have yet to become a real problem, so I've either been extremely lucky, or I've chosen to not let it become one in the first place. 

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1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Didn't BW have a spree of enforcing 120 *different* lock-miles every 3 months on CCers about 15 years ago?

As opposed to CRT with their highly unfair 20 miles a year nonsense. 

No.

28 minutes ago, Rumsky said:

I think it comes down to how you view the situation and how easily you can adapt. Many of the negatives I read about when researching living on the water have yet to become a real problem, so I've either been extremely lucky, or I've chosen to not let it become one in the first place. 

There are no negatives.

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1 hour ago, magpie patrick said:

Look backwards and look forwards

I was born in 1966, Lutine was built in 1972. In the last three years Lutine has been as far north as Hyde and as far south as Dundas Aqueduct and the Somerset Coal Canal

In 1966 Marple Aqueduct was threatened with demolition, in 1972 the Peak Forest was still unnavigable north of Marple Junction and the Kennet and Avon was largely unnavigable, in her Maiden year Lutine might have got as far as Theale, about six miles from Reading

On my shelves is a 1964 report from BWB which seriously considers closing the following amongst others

*The Trent and Mersey between Hardings Wood and Great Haywood

*The Worcester and Birmingham between Diglis Basin and Tardebigge

*Most of the Leeds and Liverpool

I've just found a photo album from 1986, a cruise on the Llangollen, in it are photos of the Mongtomery Canal at Frankton, dry canal, derelict locks. There is also a picture of a lift bridge near Whixall that had collapsed and was just a tangle of wood and metal.

In my lifetime Blisworth, Netherton, Harecastle and Foulridge Tunnels have all had long term closures, months stretching into years. Preston Brook Tunnel has collapsed as has Wast Hill, the latter killing two workmen

The Brecon and Abergavenny has breached twice, or is three times, each time people wandered whether it was the end.

How many locks have collapsed? more than ten, possibly more than twenty. 

And yet, we have more water to cruise than we've ever had. 

Just think, the 1955 National Rally was in Banbury, to save the Oxford Canal!

Some things are slipping, but they are slipping from a much higher standard than they were twenty years ago, and certainly fifty years ago. The end has always been nigh, I don't think it's any more nigh now

I agree with all of this, when Wast Hill collapsed there were concerns it would never reopen, when the M42 was built there was a plan to block the canal where it crosses near Alvechurch but a new section of canal was built to keep the navigation open.

When we boated down to Market Harborough last year it was a pleasant journey with a basin and facilities at the end which looked very different from the photos I've seen of when the National Rally was held there in 1950.

There are issues today but there are different uses of the canal now and there certainly isn't an unlimited fund to have everything in perfect condition.  A bit of initiative when out boating to pass through a lock or overcome a shallow section adds to the pleasure of boating.

 

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1 hour ago, magpie patrick said:

Look backwards and look forwards

I was born in 1966, Lutine was built in 1972. In the last three years Lutine has been as far north as Hyde and as far south as Dundas Aqueduct and the Somerset Coal Canal

In 1966 Marple Aqueduct was threatened with demolition, in 1972 the Peak Forest was still unnavigable north of Marple Junction and the Kennet and Avon was largely unnavigable, in her Maiden year Lutine might have got as far as Theale, about six miles from Reading

On my shelves is a 1964 report from BWB which seriously considers closing the following amongst others

*The Trent and Mersey between Hardings Wood and Great Haywood

*The Worcester and Birmingham between Diglis Basin and Tardebigge

*Most of the Leeds and Liverpool

I've just found a photo album from 1986, a cruise on the Llangollen, in it are photos of the Mongtomery Canal at Frankton, dry canal, derelict locks. There is also a picture of a lift bridge near Whixall that had collapsed and was just a tangle of wood and metal.

In my lifetime Blisworth, Netherton, Harecastle and Foulridge Tunnels have all had long term closures, months stretching into years. Preston Brook Tunnel has collapsed as has Wast Hill, the latter killing two workmen

The Brecon and Abergavenny has breached twice, or is three times, each time people wandered whether it was the end.

How many locks have collapsed? more than ten, possibly more than twenty. 

And yet, we have more water to cruise than we've ever had. 

Just think, the 1955 National Rally was in Banbury, to save the Oxford Canal!

Some things are slipping, but they are slipping from a much higher standard than they were twenty years ago, and certainly fifty years ago. The end has always been nigh, I don't think it's any more nigh now

100% in agreement, but the enthusiasm (or money) ran out - look at the situation since the 80s, there has been localised work ongoing (Monty, Chesterfied etc) but generally there has been, (in my opinion), an ongoing decline in the quality of the waterways infrastructure, and no sign of a turnaround.

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I cannot imagine, after all the investment and development that has been undertaken on the canal network over recent years, that it will be allowed to fall into disrepair. Funding is always going to be a challenge but I would be very surprised if it dries up, although some things may have to change.

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3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

I do find it interesting that some of those who were boating in the 70's have plenty of stories about carrying sheets of plywood with them to act as a temporary paddle, or how to make a gate seal with a cabin shaft and the ashpan.

Lots of tales about how difficult it was to navigate the system, lots of enthusiasm for doing their own repairs.

But the same people now sulk about an overhanging tree or a "CRT Aware" sign on a ground paddle.

I doubt it's the same people. 

I think the people who were rolling up their sleeves and getting on with it in the 70s are now probably nearly 50 years older and feel they may have done their bit.  Especially when they are required to pay what was half their annual salary from the 70s just to licence their boat today.  And the other half plus a bit more to moor it. Those who've come along since and are younger haven't got the pioneer spirit and are used to reaching for their mobile to call Sky TV when they lose Coronation St.

I'm still happy to let water down or flush a boat out of a lock.  My Tirfor is always to hand, but old habits die hard. People today do expect CRT to be on hand to rectify the simplest of issues, we didn't with BWB.  CRT have shouted from the roofs that they are a customer focussed organisation "Come one come all" BWB never did, and only attended grumpily, we knew that.

Trying to change the attitude means the punters' attitude changes as well.  Canal boating used to be a poor man's hobby, perhaps it still is, I don't earn anything like enough to keep up any more.

 

If things have really gone 'orrid for OP in such a short time I wonder if perhaps he had an inaccurate view of it all before he got involved. 

Sitting in water side pubs over my 50 years I've heard some moans over the years and many of them have been complaining bitterly about stuff that shouldn't have come as a surprise to them.

Has it changed so much in two years or has it taken two years for all the things you've got to do or even can't do to filter through? What is it that has gone pear shape?

 

The network will never be abandoned, filled in or fall into disrepair. It would cost more to re-channel all the rivers and streams that feed in, not to mention all the land drainage that would need to be rerouted.  Should it be merely be left to fall into disrepair then H&S would step in.  Not only no boating, but no walkers.  Lack of maintenance would dissuade cyclists and fisherists would be required to do their own fish stocking, litter picking and grass cutting.

What may happen is prices to use the cut rise dramatically to realistically cover the costs.  Then we'll understand the true meaning of "Poor Man's Hobby"!

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