Are the Canals going to Last?

[Captain Pegg]

The important thing about contracting work out is who owns the decision making process. If the asset owner retains inspection, prioritisation, scoping and scheduling powers the fact that another party is executing the work isn't such a big issue. It still brings it's challenges but by and large it can be demonstrated to work and brings some advantages. Success largely depends on the quality of the client more than the quality of the contractor. I doubt any organisation comparable with CRT has ever been entirely self sufficient in any case. The canals were built by contractors after all.

That said there are examples where contractors have full responsibility for the whole maintenance process working to service level outputs with demonstrably safe and reliable operation. Aircraft would be an obvious one so it can be made to work. It's probably not a suitable model for a subsided entity working in the heritage sector though.

Construction contractors are not short of know how; they tend to employ the same people who were once in-house in these scenarios and partly that is by legal obligation. They are also incentivised to be far more innovative than any long standing governmental organisation. Choosing an appropriate form of contract and contracting model and administering it properly is key.

JP

[Dave_P]

3 hours ago, Halsey said:

I have to disagree - we cruised down to the Thames last year ran aground on the summit numerous times and got stuck in at least 3 locks (esp Sommerton) generally due to lack of clearing behind gates and bulging side walls and then when we wanted to come back we had to go via the GU as the summit was closed due to lack of water - pretty poor for what is the most used waterway in the country I believe.

Like you I try to be one of the 1/2 full brigade - a bit like the Oxford and Leicester Arm summits in the summer!

 

 

Although Hillmorton Locks are the most heavily used on the network.  The Llangollen is busier along the whole length of the canal.  The South Oxford, which is being discussed, gets considerably less traffic than the north oxford.

[Movin' on]

I stand corrected ..................

[cuthound]

On 01/02/2018 at 12:37, mrsmelly said:

No.

There are no negatives.

True, since the almost universal adoption of digital cameras 

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, cuthound said:

True, since the almost universal adoption of digital cameras 

Very droll very droll 

[Ray T]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

True, since the almost universal adoption of digital cameras 

Not according to Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

Raw image files are sometimes called digital negatives, as they fulfill the same role as negatives in film photography: that is, the negative is not directly usable as an image, but has all of the information needed to create an image. Likewise, the process of converting a raw image file into a viewable format is sometimes called developing a raw image, by analogy with the film development process used to convert photographic film into viewable prints. The selection of the final choice of image rendering is part of the process of white balancing and color grading.

[TheBiscuits]

4 hours ago, Ray T said:

Not according to Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

Raw image files are sometimes called digital negatives, as they fulfill the same role as negatives in film photography: that is, the negative is not directly usable as an image, but has all of the information needed to create an image. Likewise, the process of converting a raw image file into a viewable format is sometimes called developing a raw image, by analogy with the film development process used to convert photographic film into viewable prints. The selection of the final choice of image rendering is part of the process of white balancing and color grading.

Yes, but that's wikipedia.

A photo negative *is* directly usable as an image, it's just all the colours are "wrong".  A RAW image file (as indeed a JPEG or PNG) file is nothing but binary 1's and 0's.  

I do agree that all the terminology and jargon carried across the photographic industry as the technology changed, but a traditional negative is an image in it's own right: dig one out and look at it!

 

[Irob]

I was browsing and found this last year article on a housing construction problem at Manchesters Islington warf. Suprising to find the project co owned by CRT. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Irob

[Allan(nb Albert)]

5 hours ago, Irob said:

I was browsing and found this last year article on a housing construction problem at Manchesters Islington warf. Suprising to find the project co owned by CRT. 

Isis co-owned by C&RT (and before it BW) changed its name to Waterside Places about 18 months ago. It has a capital loan of £24m from C&RT as well as loans from local government and elsewhere.

[X Alan W]

I guess the demise of the system if you can call it that was with the ceasing to be lengths men /lock keepers tending their patch they knew their stretch almost to the last blade of grass & usually did an amount of what was required each day & more often than not walked/biked their patch each day they were free to carry out a range of tasks without referring to higher authority ie. section inspector so the tow path grass got mown/cut, saplings cut locks greased /painted cills cleared rubbish removed that prevented the gates closing paddles working all this was ongoing & not requiring phone call to head office to inspect /sort a problem & possibly having to wait for private contractors to fix the problem the adage a stitch in time saves nine comes to mind

[MoominPapa]

1 hour ago, X Alan W said:

I guess the demise of the system if you can call it that was with the ceasing to be lengths men /lock keepers tending their patch they knew their stretch almost to the last blade of grass & usually did an amount of what was required each day & more often than not walked/biked their patch each day they were free to carry out a range of tasks without referring to higher authority ie. section inspector so the tow path grass got mown/cut, saplings cut locks greased /painted cills cleared rubbish removed that prevented the gates closing paddles working all this was ongoing & not requiring phone call to head office to inspect /sort a problem & possibly having to wait for private contractors to fix the problem the adage a stitch in time saves nine comes to mind

But lengthsmen existed in the days when manual labourers. such as they, were paid peanuts, so you could afford to have one for every five miles of canal. If you paid the same now, nobody would take the job, and if you paid a 21st century wage to enough people to have a lengthsman for every five miles, you'd be bankrupt.

The lengthsman system existed, at least in part, because of lack of transport. A man maintained the length he could practically walk to from his home.

The canals may be pretty and historic. but they exist in the economy of today. Labour is expensive because its two orders of magnitude more productive than it was in the 18th centrury, transport is cheap because good roads exist and there's an industrial economy mass producing vans and diesel. You can't ignore either of those facts.

ETA. If you take advantage of another fact of 21st century economic life, you can have lots of people around looking after things, especially at locks. Said fact being the existence of huge numbers of  retired baby boomers with good health and good pensions, who are looking for something to do, and  don't need paying at all! Hence the genius of the volocky scheme.

MP.

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by MoominPapa
Baby boomers

[TheBiscuits]

18 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

But lengthsmen existed in the days when manual labourers. such as they, were paid peanuts, so you could afford to have one for every five miles of canal. If you paid the same now, nobody would take the job, and if you paid a 21st century wage to enough people to have a lengthsman for every five miles, you'd be bankrupt.

The lengthsman system existed, at least in part, because of lack of transport. A man maintained the length he could practically walk to from his home.

The canals may be pretty and historic. but they exist in the economy of today. Labour is expensive because its two orders of magnitude more productive than it was in the 18th centrury, transport is cheap because good roads exist and there's an industrial economy mass producing vans and diesel. You can't ignore either of those facts.

ETA. If you take advantage of another fact of 21st century economic life, you can have lots of people around looking after things, especially at locks. Said fact being the existence of huge numbers of  retired baby boomers with good health and good pensions, who are looking for something to do, and  don't need paying at all! Hence the genius of the volocky scheme.

MP.

 

I thought CRT claim to look after 2000 miles of canals and rivers, and pay around £10 million to Fountains to do basic grasscutting and towpath maintenance.

Which sounds like £5000 per mile per year to me, suggesting £25,000 a year for a five mile lengthsman.

And of course the contract staff are not allowed to clear bywashes etc - they are there just to trim hedges and cut grass.

With regard to the lengthsman walking from his home to work, does it really make more sense for a crew to drive 100 miles to cut a stretch of grass on a towpath than to have a local person do it?

I think this is the argument that comes out of the Carillion mess - it's easier for CRT to hand the whole lot to one contractor than it is to manage lots of smaller local contracts.  I am fairly sure that some of the local landscape contractors would be delighted to pick up a 20 mile section to mow occasionally.

[rgreg]

10 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I thought CRT claim to look after 2000 miles of canals and rivers, and pay around £10 million to Fountains to do basic grasscutting and towpath maintenance.

Which sounds like £5000 per mile per year to me, suggesting £25,000 a year for a five mile lengthsman.

And of course the contract staff are not allowed to clear bywashes etc - they are there just to trim hedges and cut grass.

With regard to the lengthsman walking from his home to work, does it really make more sense for a crew to drive 100 miles to cut a stretch of grass on a towpath than to have a local person do it?

I think this is the argument that comes out of the Carillion mess - it's easier for CRT to hand the whole lot to one contractor than it is to manage lots of smaller local contracts.  I am fairly sure that some of the local landscape contractors would be delighted to pick up a 20 mile section to mow occasionally.

Add to your £25,000 per year: equipment, national insurance, pensions, sick pay, holiday cover etc and you arrive at a very different figure.

[TheBiscuits]

Well, no.

£5000 per mile per year is the rate they pay currently, and it does not appear to be a full time job to maintain 5 miles - far from it.

If someone wanted to do this full time I would assume they would take on a much longer length.

[haggis]

We have just cruised from Streethay to stone and back and what a difference It has made having the off side trimmed back. Looks neater,  better sight lines and more water width. 

We saw several CRT teams out and about 

Haggis 

[rgreg]

3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Well, no.

£5000 per mile per year is the rate they pay currently, and it does not appear to be a full time job to maintain 5 miles - far from it.

If someone wanted to do this full time I would assume they would take on a much longer length.

Ok, I read it that you were proposing that the same work could be achieved by employing a £25,000 per year lengthsman. 

[Captain Pegg]

16 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Well, no.

£5000 per mile per year is the rate they pay currently, and it does not appear to be a full time job to maintain 5 miles - far from it.

If someone wanted to do this full time I would assume they would take on a much longer length.

At which point you would have to provide a vehicle. It would also be necessary to provide messing and sanitary facilities. Something that wasn't a requirement in the past.

JP

[X Alan W]

On 2/3/2018 at 11:59, MoominPapa said:

But lengthsmen existed in the days when manual labourers. such as they, were paid peanuts, so you could afford to have one for every five miles of canal. If you paid the same now, nobody would take the job, and if you paid a 21st century wage to enough people to have a lengthsman for every five miles, you'd be bankrupt.

The lengthsman system existed, at least in part, because of lack of transport. A man maintained the length he could practically walk to from his home.

T

ETA. If you take advantage of another fact of 21st century economic life, you can have lots of people around looking after things, especially at locks. Said fact being the existence of huge numbers of  retired baby boomers with good health and good pensions, who are looking for something to do, and  don't need paying at all! Hence the genius of the volocky scheme.

MP.

 

Reading the posts re Volo lockies on this forum  maybe they could be better do the job of the long lost lengths men Free labour & the cut in better condition +happy in the main boaters working their own locks but only time will tell One thing for sure I'm to old for Round 2 of the restoration lark

[LadyG]

48 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

Reading the posts re Volo lockies on this forum  maybe they could be better do the job of the long lost lengths men Free labour & the cut in better condition +happy in the main boaters working their own locks but only time will tell One thing for sure I'm to old for Round 2 of the restoration lark

I don't think baby boomers are in it for the long term [lol], and tbh they don't want a full time job, or hard physical work 50 weeks of the year.

[brassedoff]

Going to reply very short,

Raising this post does not mean I worry to much but it's a concern I have without going into detail of my area and what I've seen and heard my post is valid especially to the cost to subcontracter's to carry out canal repair's.

(Who I know very very well)

Someone mentioned maybe I might have set my expectations too high and had enough of boating.

 

(God knows where they got that from)

 

I love this life, don't put me down as a tosser, ive done 24/7 3 years. (Mud/Shit/Cold & moving every single week)

Sometimes posts on cwdf turn into a good banter but later arguments trying outflank the previous poster......

 

Why?

 

Just have a laugh but discuss stuff.

 

On another 13amp thread some bloke was really rude and made nasty demoralizing comments about my mental degeneration as a person.

 

 

See ya.  I will read cwdf but I will not post again.

 

Take it less aggressively in bullying the (new to boating) 

 

 

 

[matty40s]

i would be very disappointed if you didn't post again.

you raised very valid points which quite a few of my posts illustrated, both observed and in pictures.

Keep posting, don't let the happyCRTclappers get you down.

[brassedoff]

9 minutes ago, matty40s said:

i would be very disappointed if you didn't post again.

you raised very valid points which quite a few of my posts illustrated, both observed and in pictures.

Keep posting, don't let the happyCRTclappers get you down.

Matt thanks, but you see it because your on the cut moving about,  I can't see or imagine any one on the move 24/7 that  can't.

I know a load of crt tent popup people (donaton hunters), !nar nothing this week!, really really friendly people that need and deserve a wage but no direct debits being signed up by canal users.

 

Some folks on here need to pull their head out if the sand. 

 

Sorry but that's the bear truth....

 

[Captain Pegg]

9 hours ago, brassedoff said:

Matt thanks, but you see it because your on the cut moving about,  I can't see or imagine any one on the move 24/7 that  can't.

I know a load of crt tent popup people (donaton hunters), !nar nothing this week!, really really friendly people that need and deserve a wage but no direct debits being signed up by canal users.

 

Some folks on here need to pull their head out if the sand. 

 

Sorry but that's the bear truth....

 

It's about as serious a topic as you could have chosen so I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to adopt a light hearted approach or that everyone will agree with you. That wouldn't make for much of a discussion.

There seems to be a trend in the views expressed that those looking long term see an overall improvement and those looking short term see a deterioration. Those views are entirely compatible so no need to suggest folks take their head out of the sand. Everyone's experience of the canals is slightly different but equally valid.

You may well be right in your observations and cost control in contracting out work is a real issue, but to put an apparent decline in the condition of canals down to contracting out delivery of work is too simplistic. There are many more factors involved.

It was interesting question and one of the more interesting recent threads.

Thanks,

JP

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

There seems to be a trend in the views expressed that those looking long term see an overall improvement and those looking short term see a deterioration. Those views are entirely compatible so no need to suggest folks take their head out of the sand. Everyone's experience of the canals is slightly different but equally valid.

I feel that I belong to the third group - I see a continuation of the deterioration that started 30 years ago, and, like a snow ball rolling down a hill, has become 'bigger and faster' as the years have gone by, and will continue to worsen in the longer term - unless there is a 'revolution' in both management and funding sources.

The deterioration has dramatically increased this century, with BW, admitting to, & handing over to C&RT, a backlog of repairs in excess of £200m. In 2015 (alone) an additional 680 'defects' with an estimated repair cost of £117m were rolled over from 2014.

C&RT appear to no longer publish their 'defect' figures and state the cost can only be "attributed when we get to the point at which we intend to rectify the defect".

The 2015/16 figures from C&RT show they actually only achieved rectification of 50% of that years 'safety related defects' :

In total we closed 27,015 defect notifications in 2015/16. The 2015/16 CRT Key Performance Indicator (KPI) shows we scheduled to close 5,807 high
priority customer service / safety related infrastructure defects. We completed 2,910 which is 50%.

C&RT did respond to a FoI in May 2017 re the number of defects rectified in the previous year, unfortunately they again failed to achieve their plans by a considerable margin :

The 2016/17 CRT Key Performance Indicator (KPI) shows we scheduled to close 3,744 high priority customer service / safety related infrastructure defects. We
completed 2,809 which is 75%.

And that was just 'high priority and safety' defects.

C&RT do appear to be getting better at setting KPI's as their achieved rectifications when compared to the KPI's are improving, however the actual number of rectifications per annum is falling

 

If your are of the 'seeing an overall improvement long-term' faction - what do you see happening that is going to reverse the trend ?

 

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[X Alan W]

13 hours ago, LadyG said:

I don't think baby boomers are in it for the long term [lol], and tbh they don't want a full time job, or hard physical work 50 weeks of the year.

That's a some what sweeping statement  there are folk of all ages  that want to work & then there are the " Tired" ones I can't comment on today's canal employees work rate  but back in the day when I delivered piles to BW gangs  the daily length of fitted piles varied quite a bit & it couldn't all have been due to the terrain some did more tea drinking /longer lunch breaks than others I get the impression that the workforce set up of C&RT comprises of a lot more chiefs than indian's with the do as I say rather than do as I do attitude + a lot of staff have had no experience of water ways