Starter battery on shore power

[nicknorman]

So the Sterling is just for battery monitoring. The Adverc is just for boosting the domestic alternator's voltage. So we come back to a problem with the engine alternator or engine battery or wiring/isolator.

I think you are focussing on the wrong thing, it doesn't really matter whether the Combi has the engine battery wire connected or not, although it would be nice if it did. The problem is that when the engine has been run, there isn't sufficient oomph to start the engine again. That is nothing to do with the Combi. Since you don't know whether the Combi is wired to the starter battery or not (although it would be pretty easy to find out by looking at the connections on the combi and seeing if there was a wire on the engine battery connection) that can't be used for fault finding. However it will be trivially easy for an electrician to see what is going on. Of course it could even be a problem with the starter motor I suppose. Almost anything, except the Combi!

8 minutes ago, frahkn said:

Right.

So the Sterling kit is not a split charge device (I never thought it was) and now I know that the adverc is not either.

So either I don't have one or it is some where else between the batteries and the alternators. See what I mean about not knowing my own boat well enough.

You wouldn't normally expect to have a split charge function on a Beta, since they have a dedicated small alternator for the starter battery and a much larger one for the domestics. You would expect the engine alternator to be wired direct to the starter battery (possibly via the isolator switch).

Split charge devices are normally found where there is only one alternator, or where there are two alternators of similar sizes.

[Alan de Enfield]

Summary :

1) Starter battery is totally shot and not holding any charge, or

2) Starter alternator is broken / faulty, or

3) Connection between battery and alternator faulty / broken

 

No cost test options :

For 1

Charge battery by putting a jump lead across from the leisure batteries, so as the mains charger charges the domestics it will also charge the starter, after an overnight charge disconnect jump lead and try battery, if it starts, stop it and try again a few times, if it is holding charge it should happily start the engine a 'fair' number of times. Alternatively wire in the starter battery to the charger.

For 2

Check voltage of battery without engine running, start engine (if necessary by jump starting from the domestics), check voltage, voltage should be higher than it was, the state of charge of the battery will dictate the voltage - if the battery is very flat the voltage will be low (maybe not much above 12v) if the battery is well charged it will be high (maybe 14.4v) If there is no change between engine off & engine on then the alternator is suspect and further testing needed.

Change the alternator over for your spare and see if the problem is resolved.

For 3

Test for continuity (using the ohms scale) with your multi-meter - if the wires are continuous and unbroken then you should get a reading of Zero (0)

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[nicknorman]

... or 4, something wrong with the starter motor, or wiring to it.

[frahkn]

Thanks everybody.

I was never worried about the problem itself, as I said, the boatyard will sort that out.

My worry was that something I had treated as self-evident - that the starter battery was charged when on shore-power - was put in doubt by the fitter (and initially, by this forum). However responses to this thread support the idea that this may not be the case, you all can envisage cases of only the domestic bank being connected to the combi.

Also, this thread made me think about the distance (12 feet) between the combi and the starter battery, this may explain why they are not connected - if they in fact are not.

I am very grateful for all the help and I will post details of the solution when I have them. 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, frahkn said:

Also, this thread made me think about the distance (12 feet) between the combi and the starter battery

4 metres really isn’t that long a run. A few quid for a bit of cable and it’s done. 

[frahkn]

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

4 metres really isn’t that long a run. A few quid for a bit of cable and it’s done. 

True (although the way the cables would have to be run would make it longer) but it's the only explanation I can think of for a good builder like Orion not making the link - if indeed they did not. Of course, as people have said, it's not invariably done this way, perhaps it was not common with Orions?

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, frahkn said:

Of course, as people have said, it's not invariably done this way, perhaps it was not common with Orions?

I think you are misreading the replies. It IS the norm to connect the starter charge output to the starter battery. A lazy, ignorant or incompetent installer might not do so but that would be the exception, not the norm. 

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I think you are misreading the replies. It IS the norm to connect the starter charge output to the starter battery. A lazy, ignorant or incompetent installer might not do so but that would be the exception, not the norm. 

... well, unless lazy, ignorant or incompetent installers are the norm. Hmmm....

[frahkn]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

I think you are misreading the replies. It IS the norm to connect the starter charge output to the starter battery. A lazy, ignorant or incompetent installer might not do so but that would be the exception, not the norm. 

Let me just say that I do not know that the starter charge output to is not connected the starter battery and cannot check as I am not on the boat. I think I must emphasise this as both the manufacturer and the electrician have been mentioned by name in my original post.

I have no reason to think either were lazy, incompetent or ignorant.

While the manufacturer is now defunct, for all I know the electrician is still working and all his family may be lawyers.

 

[WotEver]

20 minutes ago, frahkn said:

While the manufacturer is now defunct, for all I know the electrician is still working and all his family may be lawyers.

My point was merely to emphasise that it IS invariably wired correctly. 

[frahkn]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

My point was merely to emphasise that it IS invariably wired correctly. 

Posts 10 and especially 15, suggest that "invariably" is too strong an adverb?, well anyway whatever part of speech, it's too strong.

Look on the bright side, the guy (see what I did there) may never read the forum or not have a lawyer in the family.

[WotEver]

13 hours ago, frahkn said:

Posts 10 and especially 15, suggest that "invariably" is too strong an adverb?, well anyway whatever part of speech, it's too strong.

Post 10 misunderstood the query and post 15 agreed with me that it’s far from ‘unusual’ to have the starter charge leads connected as your fitter suggested it was. Alan said he’d had two boats with the same kit, both correctly (fully) wired  

As to whether the original installer reads this forum I couldn’t care less. I stand by my observations. 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Post 10 misunderstood the query and post 15 agreed with me that it’s far from ‘unusual’ to have the starter charge leads connected as your fitter suggested it was. Alan said he’d had two boats with the same kit, both correctly (fully) wired  

As to whether the original installer reads this forum I couldn’t care less. I stand by my observations. 

Sorry, I must not have made myself clear.

The subject was Starter batteries NOT wired into the charger,

I replied :

As I stated on the 'other thread', this method of wiring is not 'unusual', I have had two boats wired in such a fashion" (ie starter battery not wired to charger)

 

[MtB]

On 31/01/2018 at 13:37, Alan de Enfield said:

Sorry, I must not have made myself clear.

The subject was Starter batteries NOT wired into the charger,

I replied :

As I stated on the 'other thread', this method of wiring is not 'unusual', I have had two boats wired in such a fashion" (ie starter battery not wired to charger)

 

Nested negatives are not always so difficult to misunderstand, are they not?

[WotEver]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Nested negatives are not always so difficult to misunderstand, are they not?

Indeed so. It appears not that OP misunderstood the answer but that I didn’t

Or did. 

So why do we suppose that is? Laziness, incompetence, miserly penny pinching?

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

So why do we suppose that is? Laziness, incompetence, miserly penny pinching?

Don't be so hard on yourself.

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Laughing greenie!

[frahkn]

12 hours ago, WotEver said:

Post 10 misunderstood the query and post 15 agreed with me that it’s far from ‘unusual’ to have the starter charge leads connected as your fitter suggested it was. Alan said he’d had two boats with the same kit, both correctly (fully) wired  

As to whether the original installer reads this forum I couldn’t care less. I stand by my observations. 

I disagree with your interpretation of posts 10 and 15 but of course I may be wrong.

The two members concerned have posted again but for me at least, have not clarified their respective positions so your interpretation is possibly the correct one.

If you wish to stand by your "lazy, ignorant or incompetent" statement, fair play to you. I would want to at least meet the chap before so labelling him but each to his own as they say.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by frahkn

[nicknorman]

6 hours ago, frahkn said:

 

If you wish to stand by your "lazy, ignorant or incompetent" statement, fair play to you. I would want to at least meet the chap before so labelling him but each to his own as they say.

I would say his work speaks louder than his manner!

Edited February 1, 2018 by nicknorman

[MtB]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

I would say his work speaks louder than his manner!

 

The chap concerned may have known his wiring was wrong but been under instruction from his employer to do it like that. 

A common scenario often overlooked when criticising someone’s work. 

[frahkn]

On 30/01/2018 at 14:54, frahkn said:

Thanks everybody.

I was never worried about the problem itself, as I said, the boatyard will sort that out.

My worry was that something I had treated as self-evident - that the starter battery was charged when on shore-power - was put in doubt by the fitter (and initially, by this forum). However responses to this thread support the idea that this may not be the case, you all can envisage cases of only the domestic bank being connected to the combi.

Also, this thread made me think about the distance (12 feet) between the combi and the starter battery, this may explain why they are not connected - if they in fact are not.

I am very grateful for all the help and I will post details of the solution when I have them. 

As promised, the solution to at least part of the problem. Unfortunately it shows up my lack of attention to detail and willingness to assume without the facts.

As it turns out, the starter and the domestic batteries are connected and are charged when on shore power.

My domestic batteries are easy to access (under the back cabin floor) and are maintenance-free. My starter battery is in a box under the bed and is difficult to get at. I had assumed it was also maintenance-free - certainly it had not been touched in the five years that I have owned the boat. In fact I have never even looked at it.

It turns out that it was a standard lead acid battery which, having survived this treatment for far longer than I deserved, eventually boiled dry.

I know that many (most) of you will think "surely if he had battery problems he would have at least looked at the battery" - well no, I didn't, I made some assumptions. As often will be the case, these were wrong and I have learned something. Alas learning something from the previous problem doesn't seem to prepare me for the next one!

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I made some assumptions.

Thanks for the update - I bet you will always remember the saying :

ASSUME makes an ASS out of U & ME.

The day we stop learning something is the day we die.

[frahkn]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

Thanks for the update - I bet you will always remember the saying :

ASSUME makes an ASS out of U & ME.

The day we stop learning something is the day we die.

Doesn't it just!

I'm getting worried because it keeps making an ass out of me.

[cuthound]

In my opinion, if batteries are located in hard to to maintain places, they should be replaced with AGM batteries. Maintenace free and long lived if used and charged correctly.

[frahkn]

42 minutes ago, cuthound said:

In my opinion, if batteries are located in hard to to maintain places, they should be replaced with AGM batteries. Maintenace free and long lived if used and charged correctly.

Yes, the fitter replaced the melted mess with an AGM battery without even asking my opinion.

Well done him.

Should last well given that its predecessor lasted five years (at least) while I did my best to destroy it!