More solar advice please

[gary955]

The supplier of my solar panels has surprised me by insisting that when I charge the batteries via my mastervolt 25amp charger or via the engine alternator, that the Tracer 20amp MPPT solar controller must be disconnected from the batteries and that the solar panels must be disconnected from the controller! Is this advice correct? I certainly didn't do this on my narrowboat with it's single solar panel and PWM controller.

[Alan de Enfield]

Are you sure that is what he said ?

[gary955]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you sure that is what he said ?

Yes. I don't want to name him because he's been very helpful and seemed quite knowledgeable, but I'm hoping that on this occasion his advice is wrong.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, gary955 said:

Yes. I don't want to name him because he's been very helpful and seemed quite knowledgeable, but I'm hoping that on this occasion his advice is wrong.

He can 'talk the talk' and has probably convinced you to buy some elbow grease and snake-oil as well.

He obviously thinks he is correct - but - I have NEVER heard anything like that, it would make the use of solar panels prohibitively complicated  if every time you started the engine you needed to disconnect the panels from the controller, and the controller from the batteries.

I'll put my neck on the line and say - Its rubbish.

Speak to a 'proper' solar panel company such as Bimble for confirmation.

[WotEver]

Sounds like total rubbish to me. As Alan says above, ask someone like Bimble. 

[MtB]

What does the instruction manual for your Tracer say on the subject? I'd trust the manual far more than what some bloke flogging them says. 

On reflection, I think he may be rather a tricky monkey. I see manufacturers of plumbing stuff doing this too. They insert a nonsensical and very difficult-to-comply-with condition in the instructions which installers (correctly) dismiss as nonsense, and ignore. Then later when <anything> goes wrong with the kit, the manufacturer blames the installer for ignoring the nonsensical and very difficult-to-comply-with condition and refuses to honour their guarantee.

I find myself wondering if this bloke gives this instruction so that in future, he can blame the user for any failure of the products he sells, knowing they almost certainly will have ignored his rather silly instructions. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[WotEver]

There’s nothing as daft stated in the manual as far as I can see...

http://voile.org/panneaux_solaires/Tracer-2210RN.pdf

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

There’s nothing as daft stated in the manual as far as I can see...

http://voile.org/panneaux_solaires/Tracer-2210RN.pdf

http://www.epsolarpv.com/en/uploads/news/201710/1508812885787574.pdf

It's more likely to be this one.

[WotEver]

10 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

http://www.epsolarpv.com/en/uploads/news/201710/1508812885787574.pdf

It's more likely to be this one.

It reads much the same. Huge chunks of copy/paste by the looks of it. 

Not only doesn’t it state what OP was told, it actually does state that you can wire several controllers in parallel (which contradicts what another poster stated about Tracer MPPTs). How would it know if it’s in parallel with another controller or an alternator or a mains charger?

[TheBiscuits]

So, what happens if the MPPT is charging at 14.4V and you start your engine?

Does the alternator just do nothing or does it add charge to the batteries?

Does the same apply at 14.6V?

[TheBiscuits]

My understanding of parallel solar charging is that the multiple controllers will stop charging when each controller decides it wants to go into float (timed sequence on the Tracer) so you will often end up with only one panel/controller charging the battery.

If the alternator and the mains charger do the same can you end up in a situation where the MPPT is only chucking 1 or 2 Amps into the battery bank, and the 100A+ alternator and/or the 50A+ charger are doing nothing?

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

So, what happens if the MPPT is charging at 14.4V and you start your engine?

Does the alternator just do nothing or does it add charge to the batteries?

Does the same apply at 14.6V?

 

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

My understanding of parallel solar charging is that the multiple controllers will stop charging when each controller decides it wants to go into float (timed sequence on the Tracer) so you will often end up with only one panel/controller charging the battery.

If the alternator and the mains charger do the same can you end up in a situation where the MPPT is only chucking 1 or 2 Amps into the battery bank, and the 100A+ alternator and/or the 50A+ charger are doing nothing?

If the charge source (MPPT, alternator, mains) is chucking out current at 14.4V then the batteries are in absorption. What happens to each of them if they’re all in parallel depends on their design. One or more of them may well shut down, with the one with the highest voltage ‘winning’. If that happens then the charge time might increase slightly but it won’t be of any great significance because the charge current is slowly decreasing anyway. 

If the charge is still in bulk then every source will add its current to the others, and this is when you need as much as you can get - the ‘up to 80% SoC’ stage. 

[gary955]

I think we're saying ignore the advice then? Perhaps a forumite with a Tracer controller might be able to share their experience.

I sourced the panels from this company after phoning round various suppliers to enquire about the presence of bypass diodes in their panels due to the inevitable partial shading of the panels in my application. This guy was the only one to have that knowledge of his panels. He supplied Panels, controller, appropriately sized and terminated cables, good quality mountings, was very price competitive and supplied zero rated for VAT under HMRC notice 744c. I think his advice is wrong on this matter but I don't consider him a "snake oil salesman" and am happy with his company's products and service.

[matty40s]

4 hours ago, gary955 said:

Yes. I don't want to name him because he's been very helpful and seemed quite knowledgeable, but I'm hoping that on this occasion his advice is wrong.

Load of bollocks

[Asia_Off_Grid]

14 hours ago, gary955 said:

The supplier of my solar panels has surprised me by insisting that when I charge the batteries via my mastervolt 25amp charger or via the engine alternator, that the Tracer 20amp MPPT solar controller must be disconnected from the batteries and that the solar panels must be disconnected from the controller! Is this advice correct? I certainly didn't do this on my narrowboat with it's single solar panel and PWM controller.

As others here have stated, this is a load of shite. Almost ANY quality* controller will not overcharge your batteries. They, like an alternator, will automatically reduce the amperes being sent to the batteries, as the batteries get closer to full capacity. 

 

 

*The above advice does not apply, if the system includes cheaply made or knockoff Chinese junk solar charge controllers. I have seen cheap / fake controllers ruin very costly battery systems. Although, thankfully, not my own.

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

As others here have stated, this is a load of shite. Almost ANY quality* controller will not overcharge your batteries. They, like an alternator, will automatically reduce the amperes being sent to the batteries, as the batteries get closer to full capacity. 

 

 

*The above advice does not apply, if the system includes cheaply made or knockoff Chinese junk solar charge controllers. I have seen cheap / fake controllers ruin very costly battery systems. Although, thankfully, not my own.

 Point of order.

Its fine to think like that because the charging current will reduce but the controller of whatever type only limits the voltage (adjustable power supplies excepted). Once the controller is limiting the voltage it is the batteries that control the current flow - as we have said so many times before. This is why mutiple controlled charging sources can coexist.

[MtB]

52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 Point of order.

Its fine to think like that because the charging current will reduce but the controller of whatever type only limits the voltage (adjustable power supplies excepted). Once the controller is limiting the voltage it is the batteries that control the current flow - as we have said so many times before. This is why mutiple controlled charging sources can coexist.

 

If the supplier being used by the OP is unwittingly selling fake Chinese controllers which do nothing of the sort (i.e. don't 'control'), could he be right and they wreck batteries? 

Could he also be incorrectly attributing such failures to his customers failing to disconnect the solar from other charging devices (i.e. he is wildy guessing)?

[WotEver]

56 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

If the supplier being used by the OP is unwittingly selling fake Chinese controllers which do nothing of the sort (i.e. don't 'control'), could he be right and they wreck batteries? 

Could he also be incorrectly attributing such failures to his customers failing to disconnect the solar from other charging devices (i.e. he is wildy guessing)?

I have seen cheap mains battery chargers that, if left permanently connected, keep raising their voltage... 15.5V, 16V, 17V, once the batteries are fully charged. It’s as if they have no regulation. Yes, it’s possible that someone could make such a poorly designed Solar controller but a Tracer certainly isn’t such a beast and he claims to be selling Tracer. 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

but a Tracer certainly isn’t such a beast and he claims to be selling Tracer.

 

Well yes, this was my point. He probably believes he is selling genuine Tracers but what if unwittingly he is getting palmed off with fakes?

It might explain the story given to the OP.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I have seen cheap mains battery chargers that, if left permanently connected, keep raising their voltage... 15.5V, 16V, 17V, once the batteries are fully charged. It’s as if they have no regulation. Yes, it’s possible that someone could make such a poorly designed Solar controller but a Tracer certainly isn’t such a beast and he claims to be selling Tracer. 

The highest I have ever let my Halford's charger go to is 15.9v. I have no idea if it would keep going, but having reached that voltage and give the batteries a 'kicking' I switched it off.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The highest I have ever let my Halford's charger go to is 15.9v. I have no idea if it would keep going, but having reached that voltage and give the batteries a 'kicking' I switched it off.

 

Swerving off topic briefly, what's the difference here between one's battery getting a 'kicking' and being equalised/desulphated?

Edited January 30, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
spellin'

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Swerving off topic briefly, what's the difference here between one's battery getting a 'kicking' and being equalised/desulphated?

Use of correct terminology.

Everyone understands a 'good kicking'.

[Asia_Off_Grid]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Swerving off topic briefly, what's the difference here between one's battery getting a 'kicking' and being equalised/desulphated?

Equalizing voltage is about 15.5, isn't it? 

[Asia_Off_Grid]

17 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Well yes, this was my point. He probably believes he is selling genuine Tracers but what if unwittingly he is getting palmed off with fakes?

I have seen Chinese made controllers that were advertised as MPPT, but were found to be PWM controllers, when the cases were removed. 

In the past, I ordered several (very) cheap (priced) controllers that did not regulate voltage very well, when tested. I wish I had video recorded those tests. Unbelievable.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Asia_Off_Grid said:

Equalizing voltage is about 15.5, isn't it? 

16.1v according to Trojan, IIRC.

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Use of correct terminology.

Everyone understands a 'good kicking'.

 

So you don't have a technically valid answer my question?