BCN Toll Islands

[Ray T]

1 hour ago, john6767 said:

Thanks Ray, it is this photo that is in the book

Not seen it before.

Any idea what the gantry going accross to the toll house is?

 Service troughing for water, electricity etc?

Edited January 29, 2018 by Ray T

[J R ALSOP]

I'd give a million pounds to have stood alongside that toll keeper for a week.

[furnessvale]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

The ones with a notch in each end have a tunnel passing through the middle of the island, under the toll house. I have always assumed this so to allow water to pass through when the narrow passage either side is occupied by (loaded) boats.

Yes, I can understand the provision of a piston relief pipe, although if both side passages were occupied by stationary boats there would be no piston effect to relieve!

Even so, a piston relief pipe could run through a solid island just as easily as one with two notches in it.

George

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

I have always assumed that the large notches in the ends of most toll islands were to hold a couple of boats out of the way without obstructing other traffic, possibly relevant if boats turned up with incorrect paperwork etc.

Does anyone know if my assumption is correct?

George

I have often wondered the purpose, and initially that sounds feasible.

However most historic photos I have seen I think show clear evidence of something only part way into the opening that, unless moveable, would preclude taking boats in very far.  (Some of the "not weeded up" fairly modern pictures also show some kind of obstruction).

I can't see why this would be, if they were meant to let you hold the ends of boats in them, so I'm not convinced.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

Yes, I can understand the provision of a piston relief pipe, although if both side passages were occupied by stationary boats there would be no piston effect to relieve!

Even so, a piston relief pipe could run through a solid island just as easily as one with two notches in it.

George

But with Farmers Bridge being so busy they had to have 24 hour operation, there would be a continuous flow along the main line towards Birmingham.

With two notches the culvert is shorter.

It's not so much that there are 'notches' in the island - more that the middle of the island is large enough for the toll house, but either side there are 'wings' to match the length of a boat.

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

I have often wondered the purpose, and initially that sounds feasible.

However most historic photos I have seen I think show clear evidence of something only part way into the opening that, unless moveable, would preclude taking boats in very far.  (Some of the "not weeded up" fairly modern pictures also show some kind of obstruction).

I can't see why this would be, if they were meant to let you hold the ends of boats in them, so I'm not convinced.

How about they serve no purpose at all; why would there be a need to fill that area and surface it? 

The island serves it's purpose as the shape that it is, two long outer sections to give 7' wide narrows for boats to stand for gauging and a central section big enough for the toll house. If there is a need to pass water through the central section it makes even more sense not to fill any more of the overall width of the channel than necessary.

The answer may lie in how and when the toll islands were constructed compared to the canal itself.

JP

ETA - Beaten to it but two independent answers on the same lines.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Captain Pegg

[john6767]

11 hours ago, Ray T said:

 Service troughing for water, electricity etc?

That was my thought too, which probably makes it a late addition.

[john6767]

9 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

How about they serve no purpose at all; why would there be a need to fill that area and surface it? 

The island serves it's purpose as the shape that it is, two long outer sections to give 7' wide narrows for boats to stand for gauging and a central section big enough for the toll house. If there is a need to pass water through the central section it makes even more sense not to fill any more of the overall width of the channel than necessary.

The answer may lie in how and when the toll islands were constructed compared to the canal itself.

JP

ETA - Beaten to it but two independent answers on the same lines.

The design of the islands brings up another observation.  The island in Galton Valley I believe is bigger than the others it is longer, perhaps 2 boat lengths, and wider, and to me it looks as though there were actually 3 "lanes" at that one.  There is a big island which presumably had the toll house and the a small one which is basically like the "wings" on the  Winson Green island show in the photograph.  Anyone know if that is actually the case?

[pearley]

Bigger because boats were originally 'indexed' there. That is they were measured by sticking weights in them gradually and measuring how much dry side remained. These figures were put into tables, copies of which were kept at every guaging station so they knew how much toll to charge. Indexing was later carried out at that building on the left by the side of Factory Top Lock. 

[Laurence Hogg]

22 hours ago, Ray T said:

https://www.triposo.com/poi/T__df41c14cabf0

The island toll house at Smethwick

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blogs/nigel-crowe/toll-offices

Also this thread: 

 

Lower photo of great interest as it is colour. It has long been debated the common colour used on BCN buildings woodwork, often implied to be maroon due to railway connections but that photo shows a green which was presumed to be the right colour but with little evidence.

[Heartland]

The Island Toll Houses are a feature of the BCN New Main Line, but the various toll house design varied with time. Most toll houses were on the bank, but the space restrictions on the main line led to the this innovation of placing them on the canal rather than the bank. 

[Captain Pegg]

On 28 January 2018 at 11:16, David Mack said:

The toll houses had all gone when I started walking the BCN in about 1973. So when were they demolished?

The HNBC book of Philip Weaver's photographs The Birmingham Canal Navigations 1950-1977 states that Winson Green toll office was demolished in 1960. It also has a picture of Bromford Stop with the office out of use but still standing in what it infers is the 1950s.

[Ray T]

A picture from here: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/nostalgia/gallery/archive-photos-birmingham-1960s-10800614

Edited February 19, 2018 by Ray T

[pete harrison]

13 minutes ago, Ray T said:

A picture from here: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/nostalgia/gallery/archive-photos-birmingham-1960s-10800614

This was about 5 minutes walk from where I was bought up, and where I spent much of my time as a boy. The only recognisable feature that remains at this scene is the island, the rest being devastated by the building of Gravelley Hill Interchange (Spaghetti Junction) a few years later - on which we used to ride our bikes whilst it was being built (no Health & Safety or Security in those days, and we were even given rides on the Dumper Trucks !) 

[pearley]

51 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

This was about 5 minutes walk from where I was bought up, and where I spent much of my time as a boy. The only recognisable feature that remains at this scene is the island, the rest being devastated by the building of Gravelley Hill Interchange (Spaghetti Junction) a few years later - on which we used to ride our bikes whilst it was being built (no Health & Safety or Security in those days, and we were even given rides on the Dumper Trucks !) 

Tom Fox on talks about a yard on Leamington Street/Road. Is that the one on the right? 

[Derek R.]

Might this be it?

https://wtp2.appspot.com/wheresthepath.htm

[David Mack]

23 hours ago, Ray T said:

A picture from here: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/nostalgia/gallery/archive-photos-birmingham-1960s-10800614

And a similar view today:

(from https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4097967)

Ray's original link includes another canal view which is happily little changed:

1960:

And 2014:

(http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4313580)

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by David Mack

[X Alan W]

On 1/28/2018 at 12:16, David Mack said:

The toll houses had all gone when I started walking the BCN in about 1973. So when were they demolished?

The ones in the area of the gas pipe laying  had gone in 68 & the "advice" was Wolverhampton to Brum use the right side & left in opposite direction It was rumored they had pushed some of the toll house in the other side & had not got around to dredging I remember some being vandalized in early/mid 60's I think with the decline in traffic they fell in to disuse & the local "yoof" moved in using them for various unsavory activities & demolishing them in the process

[AMModels]

On 2/11/2018 at 17:00, Heartland said:

The Island Toll Houses are a feature of the BCN New Main Line, but the various toll house design varied with time. Most toll houses were on the bank, but the space restrictions on the main line led to the this innovation of placing them on the canal rather than the bank. 

Might it be that they built the islands and as a result the toll houses on them was to facilitate the planned two way traffic on the canal with both towpaths in use and mean they didnt need to build a toll house on both banks for 'up and down' traffic?

[Derek R.]

That sounds the most probable reason for island toll houses - like station platforms with a track either side!

[Jen-in-Wellies]

So how did the toll collectors get on and off the islands? Did they have to hope there was a boat there that they could scramble across at shift changeover? Did they pole vault? Take a running jump? It is between eight and nine foot from what I remember. Did they have a plank they could place across the gap? As long as it was manned continuously, the plank could be kept on the island and placed across when the shift changed.

Jen

[Derek R.]

Look back at post No. #22. You'll see the plank bridging the gap. Operated by the toll collector and swung with the handle supplied.

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Derek R.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 minutes ago, Derek R. said:

A plank mounted on a pivot with a handle operated by the toll collector. You can see the plank bridging the gap on the right in Ray's post:

 

Thanks! Didn't spot that. So they would always be manned, which makes sense.

Jen

[alan_fincher]

10 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

So how did the toll collectors get on and off the islands? Did they have to hope there was a boat there that they could scramble across at shift changeover? Did they pole vault? Take a running jump? It is between eight and nine foot from what I remember. Did they have a plank they could place across the gap? As long as it was manned continuously, the plank could be kept on the island and placed across when the shift changed.

Jen

No they were accessed by a subway that ran under the canal.........

(...... oh, OK, not really!)