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Mains charger


BD3Bill

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Hi all, been a while since I’ve posted.

I need a good charger (only, no need for inverter) so I can do equalisation charging.

Looking at Victron IP22, 3 output 30amp. 

Battery bank is two Albion 110ah plus a 105amp starter. 5 years old and down in capacity due to a) cold weather and b ) less solar joy! 

Batteries have lost 8 to 10 % of capacity. 

My alternator isn’t going to do the job on it’s own!

Cheers 

 

 

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I have just got the Victron IP22 to replace the almost useless Sterling Pro-budget thing that has served us badly for the last ten years. Its too early to give a proper opinion on this new charger, but so far I think its pretty good. However I am.not sure that they have got the equalisation right, I think its 16.5 volts at a very low current whilst I would rather see 15.5 volts and a bit more current. More current would better handle older and bigger battery banks and allow me to equalise without turning everything off. I wonder if Victron would listen if I asked them? it might only need a software mod.

Your 8 to 10% capacity loss is possibly only due to the cold weather rather than a need for equalisation.

So far....the Victron really can produce 30 amps, it does not go into float ridiculously early and a single button press puts it back into bulk/absorption mode. It also does 14.7 volts which is good (and I saw 14.8 but thats because its cold). The temperature sensor is inside the charger which is not perfect but better than none at all. Have not managed to make the Bluetooth/Iphone thing work yet.

................Dave

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13 hours ago, dmr said:

I have just got the Victron IP22 to replace the almost useless Sterling Pro-budget thing that has served us badly for the last ten years. Its too early to give a proper opinion on this new charger, but so far I think its pretty good. However I am.not sure that they have got the equalisation right, I think its 16.5 volts at a very low current whilst I would rather see 15.5 volts and a bit more current. More current would better handle older and bigger battery banks and allow me to equalise without turning everything off. I wonder if Victron would listen if I asked them? it might only need a software mod.

Your 8 to 10% capacity loss is possibly only due to the cold weather rather than a need for equalisation.

So far....the Victron really can produce 30 amps, it does not go into float ridiculously early and a single button press puts it back into bulk/absorption mode. It also does 14.7 volts which is good (and I saw 14.8 but thats because its cold). The temperature sensor is inside the charger which is not perfect but better than none at all. Have not managed to make the Bluetooth/Iphone thing work yet.

................Dave

Dave, I was just about to press the button and order the IP22 but your post worries me. 16v does seem too high for equalization which is one of the reasons for buying it. I downloaded the manual and was thinking it was less but I haven't got it on my iPad here. Temperature of the unit is not as good as battery temps as mine are in the cruiser stern. Also worried you haven't Bluetooth'd it to your phone. Is it because it doesn't work or you've not tried it. This is one of the main attractions for the unit. 

The alternatvie for me is the Sterling unit as the one we had on our lumpy water boat was fine for all the time we had her but it's more expensive and doesn't have Bluetooth.

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I have the same charger and had to try few times to connect via Bluetooth, when it did it updated the software on the charger. When i tried to reconnect i had to delete the connection on my phone then connect with no problems. I think this is the fault of my phone.

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9 minutes ago, Nobag said:

I have the same charger and had to try few times to connect via Bluetooth, when it did it updated the software on the charger. When i tried to reconnect i had to delete the connection on my phone then connect with no problems. I think this is the fault of my phone.

Ok that's interesting. I am looking at the unit based on @Sea Dog recommendations and he got his Bluetooth to work. 

Just checked the equalization Vs. Yes it is over 16V but low current. Need to turn off all 12v circuits for an hour then :). Maybe higher voltage at lower current as discussed on a Trojan thread recently is the way to go. 

Id certainly be keen to hear any other comments on the ip22 and especially Bluetooth issues before I order this week.

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I have their Bluepower ip65 charger and the Bluetooth connection had worked intermittently when I first got it but now seems to have given up the ghost completely. Tried connecting it to phone and tablet with no success. Most probably a software or compatablility problem but I suppose it could be a dodgy charger. 

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On 20/01/2018 at 09:25, Dr Bob said:

Maybe higher voltage at lower current as discussed on a Trojan thread recently is the way to go. 

 

I'm curious about this. Have Victron worked out a way to suspend Ohm's Law perhaps?

How can the voltage be maintained if the current is limited? Surely if the current is limited the voltage across the battery will drop regardless of the cleverness of the current limiting electronics.

Or are we talking pulse width modulation to give a lower average current?

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm curious about this. Have Victron worked out a way to suspend Ohm's Law perhaps?

How can the voltage be maintained if the current is limited? Surely if the current is limited the voltage across the battery will drop regardless of the cleverness of the current limiting electronics.

Or are we talking pulse width modulation to give a lower average current?

May well be Mike, especially when you think about Desulphater wave form. If so that 16V may be peak rather than average.

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5 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Dave, I was just about to press the button and order the IP22 but your post worries me. 16v does seem too high for equalization which is one of the reasons for buying it. I downloaded the manual and was thinking it was less but I haven't got it on my iPad here. Temperature of the unit is not as good as battery temps as mine are in the cruiser stern. Also worried you haven't Bluetooth'd it to your phone. Is it because it doesn't work or you've not tried it. This is one of the main attractions for the unit. 

The alternatvie for me is the Sterling unit as the one we had on our lumpy water boat was fine for all the time we had her but it's more expensive and doesn't have Bluetooth.

The equalisation high voltage and current limit are both issues for me as I would not want to turn everything off when equalising. I suspect Bluetooth will work when I have more time. I downloaded the Iphone app but it said we had to do a firmware update on the Victron before it would work (not ideal for a brand new device) and as I was just about to leave the boat unattended in a marina for a couple of weeks that was not an ideal time to be doing updates, will try again in a couple of weeks. I am happy to press buttons on the charger as its inside the boat, just thought the Blutooth might be nice to play with.

........Davel

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm curious about this. Have Victron worked out a way to suspend Ohm's Law perhaps?

How can the voltage be maintained if the current is limited? Surely if the current is limited the voltage across the battery will drop regardless of the cleverness of the current limiting electronics.

Or are we talking pulse width modulation to give a lower average current?

Its just like a bench power supply or even a battery charger. You set a target voltage and also a current limit and the voltage will not be reached if the current is exceeded. I think some battery companies (US?) suggest this as a strategy of charging and or/equalisation,  essentially set a current limit and just let the voltage rise and rise as long as that current is not exceeded.

..............Dave

 

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

The equalisation high voltage and current limit are both issues for me as I would not want to turn everything off when equalising. I suspect Bluetooth will work when I have more time. I downloaded the Iphone app but it said we had to do a firmware update on the Victron before it would work (not ideal for a brand new device) and as I was just about to leave the boat unattended in a marina for a couple of weeks that was not an ideal time to be doing updates, will try again in a couple of weeks. I am happy to press buttons on the charger as its inside the boat, just thought the Blutooth might be nice to play with.

........Davel

Thanks Dave, that seems to be the message Nobag (in a previous post) and I think Sea Dog reported, the need to update the software revision in the charger before a proper connection could be made. Good to hear it was just a time issue fore you. I think I will go ahead and get the IP22. I've just bought a new BMV 712 smart so that will need to connect to an app as well. Let me know if you get any further problems when you update your software.

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7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm curious about this. Have Victron worked out a way to suspend Ohm's Law perhaps?

How can the voltage be maintained if the current is limited? Surely if the current is limited the voltage across the battery will drop regardless of the cleverness of the current limiting electronics.

It’s not difficult to create a current limited power source. Most bench power supplies give variable voltage with adjustable current limit.

Think of mains or solar chargers - you can have a 10A charger, 40A charger etc but they all give circa 14.4V. They just limit their current output. 

Of course it could be pwm but I doubt it. 

Edited by WotEver
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9 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Ok that's interesting. I am looking at the unit based on @Sea Dog recommendations and he got his Bluetooth to work. 

Just checked the equalization Vs. Yes it is over 16V but low current. Need to turn off all 12v circuits for an hour then :). Maybe higher voltage at lower current as discussed on a Trojan thread recently is the way to go. 

Id certainly be keen to hear any other comments on the ip22 and especially Bluetooth issues before I order this week.

I struggled with the Bluetooth connection at first. The charger needed updating via bt, but I couldn't get my phone to pair. I found a Web based customer support at the bottom of the online manual. I told them which devices I was trying to pair without success and the next day they'd tried exactly the same phone and discovered a pop up asking for the pin popped up but behind the current page. Once you knew to look for it, there was an icon on the top row. A quick pull down, entering a pin (5 zeros iirc) and all was up and running. Good support I thought. 

Incidentally, I've had the ip22 for a few weeks now and I'm very happy with it, both as a charger/conditioner and as a 12v dc power supply. Even with the fridge on, macerator, water pump and other low power domestic loads like the lights all in normal use it's got the batteries sat very happily in storage mode except for the weekly boost. Totally silent in normal operation too.

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1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

I struggled with the Bluetooth connection at first. The charger needed updating via bt, but I couldn't get my phone to pair. I found a Web based customer support at the bottom of the online manual. I told them which devices I was trying to pair without success and the next day they'd tried exactly the same phone and discovered a pop up asking for the pin popped up but behind the current page. Once you knew to look for it, there was an icon on the top row. A quick pull down, entering a pin (5 zeros iirc) and all was up and running. Good support I thought. 

Incidentally, I've had the ip22 for a few weeks now and I'm very happy with it, both as a charger/conditioner and as a 12v dc power supply. Even with the fridge on, macerator, water pump and other low power domestic loads like the lights all in normal use it's got the batteries sat very happily in storage mode except for the weekly boost. Totally silent in normal operation too.

Thanks for the heads up on the pop up window. I will look for that as I do mine.

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If we're trying to resuscitate el cheapo 'maintenance free' batts then it's surely not much point spending £££££ a charger.

Probably won't need more than an amp or two, so it could use a spare 19V laptop adapter or 18V solar panel as a power source, then limit current with a resistance of some sort eg 12V filament light bulbs?

Disclaimer: if you can't accept the responsibility of taking any risk doing the above, then a £££££ charger is definitely your thing.  The £££££ chargers may not be safer or indeed even less safe, but their makers can afford good lawyers (with the money you handed over, remember? :))

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3 hours ago, smileypete said:

If we're trying to resuscitate el cheapo 'maintenance free' batts then it's surely not much point spending £££££ a charger.

Probably won't need more than an amp or two, so it could use a spare 19V laptop adapter or 18V solar panel as a power source, then limit current with a resistance of some sort eg 12V filament light bulbs?

Disclaimer: if you can't accept the responsibility of taking any risk doing the above, then a £££££ charger is definitely your thing.  The £££££ chargers may not be safer or indeed even less safe, but their makers can afford good lawyers (with the money you handed over, remember? :))

Hi Pete, you’ll remember that smaller calorifier thread a few years ago no doubt. I ended up having to buy a new tank when the old one got thin. Have a horizontal one mounted on the bulkhead at top of engine height and only 22 litres. I digress.... oh and I built an excellent solar water heater on a budget that made 50 c water in the summer.... I digress....

We are living aboard now and running the engine religiously, as DMR points out cold temperatures are my main enemy I think. Not maintenance free, highly cosseted and only thrashed to 55% soc once in 5 yrs I’m proud to say.

I do take on board the ££££££ spent comment. Just to desulphate like?Oh from the Genny, no shoreline....mmm see your point

Do you think that an alternator controller would be a better job?

 

Thanks for all the other comments folks and chuffed the thread turned into something useful for people’s Bluetooth issues lol! 

Cheers!

Edited by BD3Bill
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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

For cheap equalising try one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12-24V-30-Amp-Portable-Battery-Charger/282500525206?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Charge voltage rises well above 16v when batt is approaching fully charged and boils them a treat. Also charges at 24v and only £40!

Are you being funny or on the wine? Love your new boat ‘Oak’ btw. Hope to bump into you at Greg’s soon mate , Cheers 

Edited by BD3Bill
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On 20/01/2018 at 10:01, bill brown said:

I have their Bluepower ip65 charger and the Bluetooth connection had worked intermittently when I first got it but now seems to have given up the ghost completely. Tried connecting it to phone and tablet with no success. Most probably a software or compatablility problem but I suppose it could be a dodgy charger. 

Having read Seadogs post #14 I update my chargers software and now the Bluetooth connection works fine. Hurrah. 

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Struth! I don’t even need the Bluetooth feature! 

I just want to charge my batteries with something other than a standard alternator and VSR set up to compensate for a little bit of sulphation and Low temperatures! 

ALL SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE WELCOME! 

Do I need to start a different thread? Lol

I would like to hear about alternator controller as a different option perhaps? 

Oh and intend to get a couple of Rolls batteries in the spring, so will want to put something in to maintain them properly, don’t want to trash them from the get go.

Thanks

Edited by BD3Bill
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9 hours ago, bill brown said:

Having read Seadogs post #14 I update my chargers software and now the Bluetooth connection works fine. Hurrah. 

Glad to have been helpful!

5 hours ago, BD3Bill said:

Struth! I don’t even need the Bluetooth feature! 

The Blue Smart ip22 charger has Bluetooth, but Victron still sell the Blue Power (non bt) version for a few quid less if that suits your needs more closely.

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  • 4 months later...

I found this thread as I was thinking about the Victron IP22 to replace a failed Phoenix multi charge unit.

 

There are lots of good things about the IP22 (including the price) but one thing that worries me is the temperature sensor is inside the unit, not local to the batteries. On my boat the batteries are in a cruiser stern, and the charger in a cupboard inside the boat, close to the domestic hot water tank, so the charger temperature will always be much higher than the battery temperature.

 

How much of an issue is that likely to be? I wouldn't mind if all that happens is a slower time to full charge, but I would be concerned if the temperature control algorithms risked damaging the batteries in the long term. 

 

Thanks for any advice or experience.

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My IP22 is in a cupboard which gets quite hot ...30 Deg ish......and the batteries in the cruiser stern. I cant see much of a problem. If the batteries are colder then it will just take a bit longer but if you are on shore power then this isnt a problem. If you are doing it from a generator you may want to look at a bigger charger as 30A is no good in  the bulk stage.

The only issue would be if the batteries got too hot ...hence the charger wouldnt know this but again its only 30A and if the batteries are near full, you will be feeding much less than 30A. I am not worried about mine. I have 6*110Ahr domestics.

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