"diesel-powered, air-cooled Armstrong Sidley engine in great condition"

[alan_fincher]

9 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

As I understand it most Guccc boats ended up with ha2/hb2 because the nationals and Russell's were getting a bit old. Also they were modern and simple. I would imagine waterways bought job lots of them, especially at the bigger yards.( bulls bridge and Google)  Armstrongs were less common and might have been fitted as one offs either at smaller waterways yards or by privateers who bought the boats. I've had ha and hb both have been waterways blue at some point. I think armstrongs have a reputation of being more complicated and expensive. Listers are after all modified jack of all trade engines.

I don't think this really correct!

In practice the standard British Waterways engine of choice for replacement of ageing National and Russell Newbery engines in the ex GUCCCo carrying fleet was the air cooled Petter Maclaren PD2.  Lister H series engines were latterly fitted to ex GUCCCo boats relegated to the maintenance fleet, but I don't recall that being true of boats still involved in long distance carrying.  Dozens of Petters were fitted in the 1950s and early 1960s.  However, for whatever reason, I doubt the number of these still in those bats runs to double figures.

Before the last long distance carrying ended in 1970, the only immediate examples I can think of of Lister H series engines going into ex GUCCCo carring boats were those owned by Blue Line, plus a small number of Willow Wren CTS boats, (our own "Flamingo" being such an example - a reconditioned HA2 going in in 1968).

It is true that since 1970 many of the ex GUCCCo fleet have acquired Lister HA, HB or HR engines, so this no doubt establishes their suitability and longevity, but I wouldn't like to guess in how many ex GUCCCo boats the next engine to follow a National or an RN was actually an H series Lister  My guess is the stats would show that a lot of these boats ran instead for a while with a Petter, before acquiring a Lister.

I can't immediately think of any ex GUCCCo boat with an Armstrong in, but I guess there will actually be at least one somewhere that I have forgotten!

(As ever, I'm happy to be corrected on any of this by those who know more than I do, and particularly those who have researched the records).

Edited January 19, 2018 by alan_fincher

[IanM]

28 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I can't immediately think of any ex GUCCCo boat with an Armstrong in, but I guess there will actually be at least one somewhere that I have forgotten!

(As ever, I'm happy to be corrected on any of this by those who know more than I do, and particularly those who have researched the records).

I believe Yeoford has, although when it was fitted I do not know.

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, IanM said:

I believe Yeoford has, although when it was fitted I do not know.

Ah yes!

Not a "Grand Union" I am really familiar with.

[archie57]

BTW fitted a few Armstrongs in SE Division carrying boats eg "Ascot" and "Calstock" but generally disliked and not really up to the job - indeed I have heard tales of boaters deliberately thraping them and blowing them up!

Edited January 19, 2018 by archie57

[alan_fincher]

24 minutes ago, archie57 said:

BTW fitted a few Armstrongs in SE Division carrying boats eg "Ascot" and "Calstock" but generally disliked and not really up to the job - indeed I have heard tales of boaters deliberately thraping them and blowing them up!

Interesting.

Do you know why?  I wouldn't have expected them to be significantly less performant than a Petter.

[archie57]

I suspect they just got too hot - no ducting ever fitted AFAIK - when pair boating on long hot summer days. They seemed to do better "down the north". And in my limited experience of them not easy to start in the depths of winter. An acquaintance of mine reckoned he had on occasion drained the sump and heated the oil in a pan on the range to stand a chance of starting it!

[alan_fincher]

5 minutes ago, archie57 said:

I suspect they just got too hot - no ducting ever fitted AFAIK - when pair boating on long hot summer days. They seemed to do better "down the north". And in my limited experience of them not easy to start in the depths of winter. An acquaintance of mine reckoned he had on occasion drained the sump and heated the oil in a pan on the range to stand a chance of starting it!

I was going to say we are going further off topic here, but actually am reminded that the original thread was about Armstrongs, so we are temporarily back on topic(!)

I've always loved the racket, but it sounds as if there are practical considerations that make them less appealing, (My Listers always seem to start first time, however cold it is!).

I have often wondered how PD2s came to be fitted almost as standard in these boats when many seem to acknowledge that they were not actually particularly suitable for such use.

I guess a clue is that they were in production by (I think) 1954, whereas the first Lister H series engine were not until (I think again) 1958, so presumably not available when this massive re-engining exercise was first started, and once they had decided a "standard" they didn't then deviate much from it.

I guess experience has shown the Listers to be more long lasting, particularly given the inevitable hard life they would be given by crews who were pair boating. 

[pete harrison]

5 hours ago, archie57 said:

BTW fitted a few Armstrongs in SE Division carrying boats eg "Ascot" and "Calstock" but generally disliked and not really up to the job - indeed I have heard tales of boaters deliberately thraping them and blowing them up!

Whilst BTW fitted an Armstrong (marketed as a Parsons Merganser) into CALSTOCK they did not fit one into ASCOT. The Armstrong in ASCOT came out of the F.M.C. Ltd. OSTRICH (currently named KESTREL) in about 1968, finding its way into ASCOT in about 1970 (replacing a Petter PD2 - of which several major components were used in the rebuilding of the PD2 in CHERTSEY). I last saw CALSTOCK in the mid 1980's and it was still Armstrong powered, but this boat has subsequently undergone a major rebuild and I do not know what engine it has now. I am pretty sure that ASCOT is still Armstrong powered.

Period BTW records list LANCING as being fitted with an Armstrong at the end of May 1956, but was soon after re-engined with a PD2 - with the Armstrong finding its way into NUNEATON before being 'smashed' at Braunston in August 1959 and replaced by a Petter PD2.

9 hours ago, IanM said:

I believe Yeoford has, although when it was fitted I do not know.

The Armstrong in YEOFORD was fitted in about 1980, possibly coming out of the F.M.C. Ltd CYPRESS. I do not have the engine serial number for the engine currently in YEOFORD, but I do have the number of that in CYPRESS 

Edited January 19, 2018 by pete harrison

[David Mack]

On 1/18/2018 at 19:33, stagedamager said:

Industrial AS1s pop up at a rate of about 1 a month. Much cheaper than the 2s. At the moment there is a 2 at £575 and a 1 at £75..... 

Another Armstrong - this one a DE - 8hp @ 1200 rpm

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Armstrong-siddeley-stationary-engine/142664950704

[paddy r]

Having only had a AS since September, I have to say it and I have a love hate thing going on,parts are in the rocking horse department, she is a PIG to start when it's proper cold, a proper basket case to bleed after a service. But it is growing on me. 

[davidg]

If it has the original M45G starter motor change it for a CA45, if it still won't start when cold it's knackered. If it doesn't have electric start get down on your knees & pray.

I normally just bleed mine by bleeding as far as the fuel pump inlet by wiggling the priming lever on the lift pump; don't bother with the injectors, the fuel will come through. Gravity feed saves the wiggling. Compared to working on the fuel equipment on a Lister, Armstrongs are a dream; probably a consequence of being designed/assembled by aircraft engineers rather than cider crazed loons.

[roland elsdon]

46 minutes ago, davidg said:

Armstrongs are a dream; probably a consequence of being designed/assembled by aircraft engineers rather than cider crazed loons

So from what you are saying a difficult to start engine is great on an aeroplane..joy, and you have to be pissed to fix the fuel system on a lister. I can relate to the second get pissed while someone else fixes the boat, but worry about the first....

[oldironsides]

Our Armstrong starts straight away, warm or cold. How? We fitted a thermostart in the inlet manifold. Absolutely brilliant!! Cost less than £30 with all the bits.

[BWM]

Hyperion is fitted with an Armstrong but no idea when it was installed. 

[alan_fincher]

6 minutes ago, BWM said:

Hyperion is fitted with an Armstrong but no idea when it was installed. 

I didn't realise it still sported one - there was certainly an AS2 in there in the early 1970s.

Not sure if these have been posted here or not, but here is the one in Mountbatten.
 

and the one in Dove.....

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by alan_fincher

[archie57]

5 minutes ago, BWM said:

Hyperion is fitted with an Armstrong but no idea when it was installed. 

I think Barlow's put it in, their "Beatty" had one also (still has) - any others in Barlow's boats?

[BWM]

2 hours ago, oldironsides said:

Our Armstrong starts straight away, warm or cold. How? We fitted a thermostart in the inlet manifold. Absolutely brilliant!! Cost less than £30 with all the bits.

Can you give me any information about the thermostart set up that you have fitted?

[pete harrison]

3 hours ago, archie57 said:

I think Barlow's put it in, their "Beatty" had one also (still has) - any others in Barlow's boats?

Correct, both of these engines were fitted by Barlow's, and even have consecutive Parsons serial numbers - but the Armstrong Siddeley serial numbers differ considerably.

HOOD also has one but I have no idea when it was fitted or by whom and I do not yet have its serial numbers, although I do remember it being in the boat in the 1970's 

[paddy r]

1 hour ago, BWM said:

Can you give me any information about the thermostart set up that you have fitted?

And me

[pete harrison]

3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

and the one in Dove.....

 

This engine was previously in the Erewash motor CYPRUS, going in about 1984 and coming out in 2009 to be replaced by an exG.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. National 2DM.. Ironically prior to the Armstrong Siddeley CYPRUS had been exG.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. National 2DM powered since the removal of its Russell Newbery DM2 in 1957 - which was also an exG.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. engine.

PRIOR to this engine going into DOVE in 2010 it was powered by a Gardner 4L2 (fitted 2007), and before that a Lister SR3 and before that a Lister HR2 

[pete harrison]

2 minutes ago, paddy r said:

And me

Any chance you could PM me the Armstrong Siddeley and Parsons serial numbers for the engine in MOUTBATTEN as I do not have them yet. They are usually on brass plates on opposing sides of the fan duct / bell housing 

[paddy r]

13 hours ago, pete harrison said:

Any chance you could PM me the Armstrong Siddeley and Parsons serial numbers for the engine in MOUTBATTEN as I do not have them yet. They are usually on brass plates on opposing sides of the fan duct / bell housing 

Yes can do later,there is a gear box in bits in the front of Jellicoe do you want the number of it if I can find it?

[stagedamager]

You don't need that gearbox. It's probably best if I just take it off your hands......

[paddy r]

9 hours ago, stagedamager said:

You don't need that gearbox. It's probably best if I just take it off your hands......

It's probably better being ballast on the butty :-) but if you need a bit just ask. 

On 27/01/2018 at 17:52, pete harrison said:

Any chance you could PM me the Armstrong Siddeley and Parsons serial numbers for the engine in MOUTBATTEN as I do not have them yet. They are usually on brass plates on opposing sides of the fan duct / bell housing 

Done let me know if it doesn't come through. 

[pete harrison]

3 hours ago, paddy r said:

Done let me know if it doesn't come through. 

Thanks - reply sent