240v on a cruiser ?

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Flyboy said:

I think this implies that it is a requirement. Look at the bit at the bottom under RCD's       https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/electrical-safety/the-electrical-system/

 

It's not a requirement as Alan has also stated above and looking at the BSS requirements also on the site you linked, please see https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/private-boats/ sections 3.5.1 and 3.9.2, The owners are strongly advised to fit one. That's all it states and no mention that one must be fitted.

 The link that you stated is the "Stay Safe" section and is the safety points people should be aware of and look for when they have a boat or are buying or new to Boating and is not for a qualified BSS examiner.

 I know it sounds madness that a boat does not require a simple things like a RCD to pass the BSS.

Edited January 9, 2018 by PD1964

[Flyboy]

13 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

It's not a requirement as Alan has also stated above and looking at the BSS requirements also on the site you linked, please see https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/private-boats/ sections 3.5.1 and 3.9.2, The owners are strongly advised to fit one. That's all it states and no mention that one must be fitted.

I think the link that you stated is for safety points people should be aware of and look for when they have a boat or are buying or new to Boating and is not for a qualified BSS examiner.

Thanks for the clarification.   The BSS is so vague, it's not fit for purpose IMO.

[Tacet]

2 hours ago, W+T said:

Now what is this  about an change over for an inverter. It will be powering its own single socket. If i read it correct the 12v is connected to the inverter then from there it gives out 240v to sockets or any other gubbins as in charger points etc if the inverter has the features to do so.

If an inverter is added at a later stage, simply supplying a separate circuit/socket may upset the BSS people.  "Only one power source may be connected to the alternating current distribution system at any one time. NOTE – the requirement for one power source to be connected does not apply to synchronised multiple power sources. " 

[PD1964]

1 minute ago, Flyboy said:

Thanks for the clarification.   The BSS is so vague, it's not fit for purpose IMO.

Was just editing my post when you posted and as I said madness that a simple RCD is not required.

 

[PD1964]

2 minutes ago, Tacet said:

If an inverter is added at a later stage, simply supplying a separate circuit/socket may upset the BSS people.  "Only one power source may be connected to the alternating current distribution system at any one time. NOTE – the requirement for one power source to be connected does not apply to synchronised multiple power sources. " 

The system that really bugs me is when you see a three pin plug from the shore line(240v) plugged into a ring main single socket giving 240v throughout the boat.  Then when the boat is off shore power the owner un plugs this plug and replaces it with the power out live lead from the inverter with a 3 pin plug attached and switches the inverter on, leaving the shore line plug just hanging.

[Naughty Cal]

14 hours ago, W+T said:

But there is no inverter in the diagram. I dont plan to fit one as yet or at all.

If you do don't muck about with one socket for the inverter and one for mains 240v. Make it so that the inverter powers all of the 240v sockets. It isn't difficult.

[Naughty Cal]

12 hours ago, W+T said:

 

I will only have one socket for the 240v mains just if needed. 

I cant think of anything else i will need/want on a cruiser. 

Yes i will be going with a garage RCD unit after talking with folk about the socket RCD`s, not mcuh cop them i have been told.. 

We said that but it is surprising how many 240v items we now use around the boat.

The slow cooker and kettle are perhaps the most frequent we use but we also have the electric blanket, vacuum cleaner charger, several chargers for various speakers all of which we use when out cruising and not hooked up to shore power. There are other items such as heaters, battery chargers and immersion heater which are used when on shore power.

 

[nicknorman]

You do not actually need a consumer unit. Our boat has a single RCBO - that is a combined RCD and MCB. Very small and neat and perfectly adequate for Wayne’s needs. As allowed by the BSS (NOTE near the bottom of this section):

Edited January 10, 2018 by nicknorman

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You do not actually need a consumer unit. Our boat has a single RCBO - that is a combined RCD and MCB. Very small and neat and perfectly adequate for Wayne’s needs. As allowed by the BSS (NOTE near the bottom of this section):

But Wayne did not even have one of those, when I asked what protection he would be using his reply was '...the fuse in the supply and the plug' , at least now he has options so he can wire it up so that it will pass the BSS.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But Wayne did not even have one of those, when I asked what protection he would be using his reply was '...the fuse in the supply and the plug' , at least now he has options so he can wire it up so that it will pass the BSS.

I know!

[WotEver]

13 hours ago, Flyboy said:

I think this implies that it is a requirement. Look at the bit at the bottom under RCD's       https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/electrical-safety/the-electrical-system/

That’s advice, not the BSS checklist. 

Alan quoted from the checklist above. 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/268789/ecp-private-boats-ed3_rev2_apr2015_public_final.pdf

[ditchcrawler]

I would suggest that whatever is done is done safely to a good standard and I personally don't thing that 2 sockets side by side that could both be live at the same time being fed from different sources fits that bill (mains and inverter) I would suggest that as a minimum all sockets ate on the same common supply and that supply comes from ether a shore supply or inverter connected in a way that both can't be live at the same time.

[smileypete]

Too tired to give a detailed answer now but will get round to it this weekend hopefully.

A forum search on 'garage consumer unit' will pull up some past topics, as that's typically what's used.

[W+T]

All in hand with one of these

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Waterproof-garage-consumer-unit-2-way-63-amp-RCD-6A-16A-MCB-breaker-fuse-box-NEW/272953133762?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, W+T said:

All in hand with one of these

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Waterproof-garage-consumer-unit-2-way-63-amp-RCD-6A-16A-MCB-breaker-fuse-box-NEW/272953133762?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

 

I still don't understand why you want this right hand separate socket

[forsberg]

Unless he's actually asking to use a male-male cable in the right hand socket for the genny?

[Robbo]

On 09/01/2018 at 20:55, Flyboy said:

I think this implies that it is a requirement. Look at the bit at the bottom under RCD's       https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/electrical-safety/the-electrical-system/

 

An RCD is not a requirement, but it is advisable.   IMHO it should be an requirement tho.

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/194782/2013ecp_private _boats_ed3_public_final.pdf

3.5.1 Are all a.c. and d.c. fuses and miniature circuit-breakers appropriately rated, complete and in good condition?

Check the rating, completeness and condition of all miniature circuitbreakers (MCBs) and fuses which can be seen. Fuses and MCBs must be complete and free of signs of heat damage or deterioration, and be fitted securely. Fuses and fuse wire must be rated not greater than any rating marked on the fuse holder Fuse holders must contain appropriate fuses or fuse wire and not nails, silver paper, etc. MCBs must not be held closed by the use of tape or other devices. Applicability - examiners are encouraged to confirm during prior dealings with the owner, the location of the fuse box/distribution board and any in-line fuses, and to encourage their accessibility for examination. On d.c. systems the lack of a fuse or MCB is not in itself a fail point – a.c systems are subject to a check for the presence of a consumer unit or acceptable alternative, see 3.9.2. Applicability – examiners are not to remove/unscrew fuses or fuse wire holders or remove miniature circuit breakers. The checking action for fuses and miniature circuit breakers which cannot be seen without their removal should be confined to the checks for completeness and condition. Advice for owners – it is strongly advised that a Residual Current Device (RCD) is installed to provide appropriate electric shock protection on a.c. systems.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Robbo

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Robbo said:

An RCD is not a requirement, but it is advisable.   IMHO it should be an requirement tho.

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/194782/2013ecp_private _boats_ed3_public_final.pdf

3.5.1 Are all a.c. and d.c. fuses and miniature circuit-breakers appropriately rated, complete and in good condition?

Check the rating, completeness and condition of all miniature circuitbreakers (MCBs) and fuses which can be seen. Fuses and MCBs must be complete and free of signs of heat damage or deterioration, and be fitted securely. Fuses and fuse wire must be rated not greater than any rating marked on the fuse holder Fuse holders must contain appropriate fuses or fuse wire and not nails, silver paper, etc. MCBs must not be held closed by the use of tape or other devices. Applicability - examiners are encouraged to confirm during prior dealings with the owner, the location of the fuse box/distribution board and any in-line fuses, and to encourage their accessibility for examination. On d.c. systems the lack of a fuse or MCB is not in itself a fail point – a.c systems are subject to a check for the presence of a consumer unit or acceptable alternative, see 3.9.2. Applicability – examiners are not to remove/unscrew fuses or fuse wire holders or remove miniature circuit breakers. The checking action for fuses and miniature circuit breakers which cannot be seen without their removal should be confined to the checks for completeness and condition. Advice for owners – it is strongly advised that a Residual Current Device (RCD) is installed to provide appropriate electric shock protection on a.c. systems.

Hopefully the repetition will add emphasis - that's the 3rd (or maybe 4th) time the same information has been posted in this thread.

 

Edit : It is actually the 4th time on just this page of the tread.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[forsberg]

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎09 at 21:55, Flyboy said:

I think this implies that it is a requirement. Look at the bit at the bottom under RCD's       https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/electrical-safety/the-electrical-system/

 

That is a  "buy a new boat" / "Upgrade your own" Guide and not the requirements, your insurance company may have a clause about it though (EU Recreational craft directive)  in wich case it may invalidate your insurance. No insurance = BSS fail. But I would think that is beyond a inspectors jurisdiction.

 

[Naughty Cal]

6 minutes ago, forsberg said:

That is a  "buy a new boat" / "Upgrade your own" Guide and not the requirements, your insurance company may have a clause about it though (EU Recreational craft directive)  in wich case it may invalidate your insurance. No insurance = BSS fail. But I would think that is beyond a inspectors jurisdiction.

 

Is that true?

I thought the two were mutually exclusive?

[Momac]

4 minutes ago, forsberg said:

No insurance = BSS fail. 

The BSS inspector  is not required to see evidence of insurance. 

Insurance requires the boat to be seaworthy . I cannot imagine any insurance policy being so specific as to mention shore power facilities.

[forsberg]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

The BSS inspector  is not required to see evidence of insurance. 

Insurance requires the boat to be seaworthy . I cannot imagine any insurance policy being so specific as to mention shore power facilities.

My bad then, things work a bit diffrent up here (Sweden).

We do not have a BSS or a demand for insurance, but if you want to have insurance they will require that your boat fulfills the EU Recreational craft directive.

They also offer a voluntary inspection at a rate which if you pass gives a reduced premium, should you fail though your boat is uninsurable until fixed.

Marinas or paid berths may of cource require that you have insurance so works out the same in the end.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Is that true?

I thought the two were mutually exclusive?

They are.

One of our boats has insurance but being on waters that do not require a BSSC, it has no BSSC.

You can obtain a BSS without insurance.

'Flossy' may be getting confused as without EITHER a BSSC or Insurance your C&RT licence is invalid / will not be issued.

If you make a modification to your boat during the period of its valididty (ie fit a new gas locker) then the BSSC becomes invalid until a new one is issued

1 minute ago, forsberg said:

We do not have a BSS or a demand for insurance, but if you want to have insurance they will require that your boat fulfills the EU Recreational craft directive.

Are you suggesting that a boat built in 1900 has to be brought up to modern-day RCD specifications before it can be insured ?

[forsberg]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you suggesting that a boat built in 1900 has to be brought up to modern-day RCD specifications before it can be insured ?

In Sweden this is, no it can be insured but not insured and inspected. So should something bad occur on a uninspected boat they may not pay up. Then again most of the specifications are quite trivial to amend here as you do not need a licence for any modifications on a private boat here (for a DIY'er at least). There are of cource special policys for historical boats of great value with a high premium.

Anything is negotiable with a insurance company but the standard insurance requirers modern-day RCD regardless of build year here. ( still Sweden )

[smileypete]

OK a weekend reply as promised...

Typical way for a river cruiser or narrowboat would boil down to a 16A inlet (panel mounting PLUG) feeding a garage consumer unit which in turn feeds the sockets. A steel hull would typically have a galvanic isolator (deserves another topic ) in the earth connection between shoreline inlet and consumer unit.

The garage consumer unit would be fitted with an RCD (2 pole) and a single 16A MCB (single pole) which goes on to feed all the sockets. There's plenty of info on the web regarding how to wire it in detail, eg:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=garage+consumer+unit+wiring+diagram&num=100&tbm=isch

The diagrams out there show more than one MCB but we only need a single 16A one as that's what the a 16A shoreline supply is limited to, also if the consumer unit is metal don't forget to earth the case. Usually a garage consumer unit comes with a higher rated MCB so this means swapping it out for a 16A one but they're only a few quid.

For a refit you can use 2.5mm2 'twin and earth' cable if you really want, but standard acceptable practice would be 2.5mm2 fine stranded flex, eg 'arctic cable'. This can form a radial ('tree') to all the sockets, a ring main isn't necessary here.

Since standard eleccy bits aren't designed for fine stranded wire, the bare strands of the flex should have 'bootlace ferrules' crimped on to them, they can be had from Ebay and though pliers are NOT a good crimping tool generally, for bootlace ferrules they will squish them on OK.

If space is very tight then a 'three module' enclosure could substitute for the garage consumer unit, but you'd need to purchase the RCD and MCBs separately:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-3-module-ip65-insulated-enclosure-with-visor/74436

A purpose made consumer unit usually has a couple of terminal block to common connections together where needed, but if these aren't prese nt, a good way of joining fine stranded wire is with Wago 221 or 222 lever connectors:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Wago+221+or+222+lever+connectors&num=100&tbm=isch

I think that just about covers the basics, ask away if there's anything you're not sure of

Edited January 14, 2018 by smileypete