Ultramax Lithium batteries

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

corrected for you

Good point. Peeps don't seem to realise LFPs can be wrecked just as quickly and easily as FLA batteries. The technique for doing this is completely different though!

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Good point. Peeps don't seem to realise LFPs can be wrecked just as quickly and easily as FLA batteries. The technique for doing this is completely different though!

I'm only on p1 of the link provided, but its already clear these batteries are only suitable for people with deep pockets and/or a̶n̶a̶l̶ dedicated battery monitoring capabilities above and beyond the typical boater.

Edited March 10, 2018 by rusty69

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I'm only on p1 of the link provided, but its already clear these batteries are only suitable for people with deep pockets and/or a̶n̶a̶l̶ dedicated battery monitoring capabilities above and beyond the typical boater.

 

Very much so. 

But as he points out quite forcefully, there are loads of firms out there misrepresenting them and selling them as drop-in replacements, in order to clean out your wallet. And there are plenty of boaters willing and keen to believe them.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

On any Lithium installation, the BMS (battery management system) is a must. Batteries designed for leisure use have built in BMS. If you are going to brew your own, you will definitely need to fit a BMS.

Normally I would agree with you, except I know 2 people that are using the Valence batteries without a U-BMS-LV to monitor and control the systems. Both only charge at 13.6 volts =85% and neither ever go below 30% [thats because the batteries are that good it never happens] both charge using solar, both have disconnects when 85% is achieved, [load is immersion heater] one has these at his house the other on his boat which has other charging sources but as the batteries are that good doesnt need them. Valence batteries have a control board which shows you what the battery is doing they monitor them every couple of weeks/months and the cells are balanced every time they are checked.

These are real life experiences and I am on varies forums where these batteries are used and they are saying the same so I have decided that I am going to follow suit and not bother with a master BMS and just monitor the batteries  and balance with the software if needed 

[Dr Bob]

37 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Good point. Peeps don't seem to realise LFPs can be wrecked just as quickly and easily as FLA batteries. The technique for doing this is completely different though!

Yes, this is a big worry. What if the BMS goes wrong? You could write off a couple of grands worth of batteries. If a component in the BMS fails, do they fail  in 'safe' mode or just switch off and then let the solar fry the batteries? That's what I was hoping to get to reading the article but now only 7/16th of the way through .....(how do you keep a 10 month old in one place...?) and Liverpool are now on the telly....so I will have to finish the article later.

[TheBiscuits]

56 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I'm only on p1 of the link provided, but its already clear these batteries are only suitable for people with deep pockets and/or a̶n̶a̶l̶ dedicated battery monitoring capabilities above and beyond the typical boater.

Or, you know an actual designed and integrated energy storage system, with automated *management*, not just monitoring included.

My feeling was leaning toward the fact that LFP is not and will never be a drop in replacement for lead acid, no matter how many sales brochures you read.

As a designed system, with dedicated hardware they seem like they will be better over their lifecycle than lead acid.

It is worth noting that all the focus on the weight of the batteries is crucial for sailing or planing vessels but utterly irrelevant for full-displacement canal boats.

Edited March 10, 2018 by TheBiscuits

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

It is worth noting that all the focus on the weight of the batteries is crucial for sailing or planing vessels but utterly irrelevant for full-displacement canal boats.

I am now on p3, and have come to this conclusion.

I reckon the average boater would rather be out boating than spending their time billing and cooing over an expensive setup that could be easily wrecked through lack of understanding/faulty equipment/poor installation.

[dmr]

My best guess is that the drop-in replacements with proper integral BMS from people like Victron will do the job, the article did not actually say this but did not say otherwise. Trouble is they are top price, and as several will be needed in parallel they are extra expensive as we are buying multiple BMS systems.

I don't go with the popular argument that a smaller bank is adequate. If lithiums really are destroyed by an under-charge then I would want a bigger bank. Trojans will go down to 20%, I will bet that cheapos will also go down to 20% as long as its not done too often.

As a liveaboard I want something (quite a lot) in reserve so that if the engine won't start, or if I am late back from somewhere so can't run the engine (after 8), I will not be in trouble. I currently have 660ah of Trojan so if I went Lithium I would want the same. Just too expensive at present.

I only speed read the article, looks like he was saying 2000 cycles just might be possible but compared this with AGMs etc that might do 300. This is probably because he is a lumpy water man so not keen on flooded lead acids. Trojans will do 700 cycles at 20% so the Lithiums are at best only 3 times as good for a lot more money.

Lithiums are the way to go, but not yet.

.................Dave

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, dmr said:

My best guess is that the drop-in replacements with proper integral BMS from people like Victron will do the job, the article did not actually say this but did not say otherwise. Trouble is they are top price, and as several will be needed in parallel they are extra expensive as we are buying multiple BMS systems.

The Victron systems are specifically mentioned in the article.  They are not drop-in replacements, and *must* have the Victron BMS used with them as part of an integrated system.

They are very expensive, but they just work.

 

 

[MtB]

37 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Yes, this is a big worry. What if the BMS goes wrong? You could write off a couple of grands worth of batteries. If a component in the BMS fails, do they fail  in 'safe' mode or just switch off and then let the solar fry the batteries? That's what I was hoping to get to reading the article but now only 7/16th of the way through

 

He doesn't address this. Or at least I read the first half properly and skimmed the second half which focussed on devices to charge them.

A BMS is a rather loose general term for multiple devices each of which performs a different function. Each device needs careful designing to be fail safe. Rather difficult when two of them rely on hefty relays disconnecting when high or low voltage thresholds are reached. If one sticks, bang goes £3k of battery.

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

The Victron systems are specifically mentioned in the article.  They are not drop-in replacements, and *must* have the Victron BMS used with them as part of an integrated system.

They are very expensive, but they just work.

 

 

Does he not also mention a $10k Victron battery in his workshop, totally goosed, having been used only in full compliance with the Victron user manual?

[nicknorman]

34 minutes ago, dmr said:

My best guess is that the drop-in replacements with proper integral BMS from people like Victron will do the job, the article did not actually say this but did not say otherwise. Trouble is they are top price, and as several will be needed in parallel they are extra expensive as we are buying multiple BMS systems.

I don't go with the popular argument that a smaller bank is adequate. If lithiums really are destroyed by an under-charge then I would want a bigger bank. Trojans will go down to 20%, I will bet that cheapos will also go down to 20% as long as its not done too often.

As a liveaboard I want something (quite a lot) in reserve so that if the engine won't start, or if I am late back from somewhere so can't run the engine (after 8), I will not be in trouble. I currently have 660ah of Trojan so if I went Lithium I would want the same. Just too expensive at present.

I only speed read the article, looks like he was saying 2000 cycles just might be possible but compared this with AGMs etc that might do 300. This is probably because he is a lumpy water man so not keen on flooded lead acids. Trojans will do 700 cycles at 20% so the Lithiums are at best only 3 times as good for a lot more money.

Lithiums are the way to go, but not yet.

.................Dave

Yes but cost and cycle count aren’t the only considerations. Especially if you are live aboard / not cruising much, the ability to pump huge currents in is surely a large bonus. For example, we have 175A alternator and via the travelpower, 100A from the Combi, so we could pump 275A into lithiums, fully replacing 24 hrs usage in well under an hour. Over 2000 cycles, how much does that save in engine wear and diesel? (less so with solar in summer of course). Not to mention the saving in noisy nuisance.

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by nicknorman

[Rob-M]

55 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Yes, this is a big worry. What if the BMS goes wrong? You could write off a couple of grands worth of batteries. If a component in the BMS fails, do they fail  in 'safe' mode or just switch off and then let the solar fry the batteries? That's what I was hoping to get to reading the article but now only 7/16th of the way through .....(how do you keep a 10 month old in one place...?) and Liverpool are now on the telly....so I will have to finish the article later.

I'd go back to reading the article if I was you as Utd aren't going to let you back in to this one.

[TheBiscuits]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Does he not also mention a $10k Victron battery in his workshop, totally goosed, having been used only in full compliance with the Victron user manual?

I didn't spot that one - could you quote a line of text so I can search for it please?

[peterboat]

41 minutes ago, dmr said:

My best guess is that the drop-in replacements with proper integral BMS from people like Victron will do the job, the article did not actually say this but did not say otherwise. Trouble is they are top price, and as several will be needed in parallel they are extra expensive as we are buying multiple BMS systems.

I don't go with the popular argument that a smaller bank is adequate. If lithiums really are destroyed by an under-charge then I would want a bigger bank. Trojans will go down to 20%, I will bet that cheapos will also go down to 20% as long as its not done too often.

As a liveaboard I want something (quite a lot) in reserve so that if the engine won't start, or if I am late back from somewhere so can't run the engine (after 8), I will not be in trouble. I currently have 660ah of Trojan so if I went Lithium I would want the same. Just too expensive at present.

I only speed read the article, looks like he was saying 2000 cycles just might be possible but compared this with AGMs etc that might do 300. This is probably because he is a lumpy water man so not keen on flooded lead acids. Trojans will do 700 cycles at 20% so the Lithiums are at best only 3 times as good for a lot more money.

Lithiums are the way to go, but not yet.

.................Dave

The problem is that if you charge these batteries to 100% you shorten the life cycles charging to 85% and discharging to 30% gives you a 5000 cycles life which of course is far better than any other battery currently on the market and it also makes a BMS redundant.

[Dr Bob]

21 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I'd go back to reading the article if I was you as Utd aren't going to let you back in to this one.

I think you might be right......there's always England to watch later.....not much hope in that one either!

[peterboat]

14 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes but cost and cycle count aren’t the only considerations. Especially if you are live aboard / not cruising much, the ability to pump huge currents in is surely a large bonus. For example, we have 175A alternator and via the travelpower, 100A from the Combi, so we could pump 275A into lithiums, fully replacing 24 hrs usage in well under an hour. Over 2000 cycles, how much does that save in engine wear and diesel? (less so with solar in summer of course). Not to mention the saving in noisy nuisance.

 

^^^^^This is why I have gone down the route I have the ability to rapid charge from solar and having one system on full tractions and one on the LifePo4 at the moment I can tell you which chargers the fastest

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

My best guess is that the drop-in replacements with proper integral BMS from people like Victron will do the job, the article did not actually say this but did not say otherwise. Trouble is they are top price, and as several will be needed in parallel they are extra expensive as we are buying multiple BMS systems.

I don't go with the popular argument that a smaller bank is adequate. If lithiums really are destroyed by an under-charge then I would want a bigger bank. Trojans will go down to 20%, I will bet that cheapos will also go down to 20% as long as its not done too often.

As a liveaboard I want something (quite a lot) in reserve so that if the engine won't start, or if I am late back from somewhere so can't run the engine (after 8), I will not be in trouble. I currently have 660ah of Trojan so if I went Lithium I would want the same. Just too expensive at present.

I only speed read the article, looks like he was saying 2000 cycles just might be possible but compared this with AGMs etc that might do 300. This is probably because he is a lumpy water man so not keen on flooded lead acids. Trojans will do 700 cycles at 20% so the Lithiums are at best only 3 times as good for a lot more money.

Lithiums are the way to go, but not yet.

.................Dave

your last sentence sums it up. I reckon when we have a genuinely useable cost effective electric car that can actualy do what an internal combustion engined car can do useability wise then the car bods will have done all the work re the batteries and we will be able to fit em in boats. So realistic time scale is around nineteen years to go.

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

your last sentence sums it up. I reckon when we have a genuinely useable cost effective electric car that can actualy do what an internal combustion engined car can do useability wise then the car bods will have done all the work re the batteries and we will be able to fit em in boats. So realistic time scale is around nineteen years to go.

I have taken that jump already Tim for the bathtub, what I paid for my nearly new LifePo4 batteries would have bought me GTP leochs which only have 1500 cycles. So I expect to do 5000 cycles for the same money its a win win for me as the LifePo4 batteries are so much lighter and for me that is important

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have taken that jump already Tim for the bathtub, what I paid for my nearly new LifePo4 batteries would have bought me GTP leochs which only have 1500 cycles. So I expect to do 5000 cycles for the same money its a win win for me as the LifePo4 batteries are so much lighter and for me that is important

Yes Peter for your plastic bathtub they will probably be fine but for a liveaboard narrowboater I aint holding my breath 

[Bod]

22 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Hydrogen fuel cells are a great way to produce power....until you have to find the hydrogen. This battery seems to be able to generate the hydrogen from water......if it can do that then dai-lithium will be a thing of the past. Way to go!!!! It could power my plasma toilet!

The Duck is a Duck, not a Guinea Pig for loo testing!!

Concerned Bod

[Detling]

It would seem that all the success  stories are from more benign climbs than the UK, the thorny issue of not charging at more than 0.05c (2A for a 400AH bank)if the batteries are below zero Centigrade, does not appear as far as I can see. 

[Tom and Bex]

4 hours ago, smileypete said:

Loads of discussion of lithiums with real world experience on the lumpy water forums, eg this should keep anyone busy for a good few hours:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/lifepo4-batteries-discussion-thread-for-those-using-them-as-house-banks-65069.html

 

I've started to read through some of that already, but there is 400 pages on that thread! There's some heated debate on the merit or otherwise of BMS's including the risk of them failing and wrecking a cell by draining it. There seems to be quite a few users on there with no BMS, but most do seem to have low voltage cut off. Some sort of AH counter to monitor SOC seems to work well with these. 

I was thinking off using a couple of cell loggers, and connecting them up to high voltage cut off and low voltage cut off based on individual cell voltage. Possibly connected using remote battery switch such as by blue sea or BEP as low voltage cut. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F301992203767

Was also going to use this alternator controller which has specific LiFePO4 profile, is very customisable, and can monitor tail current to prevent overcharge on float.  Chap selling is very helpful with any questions. Would also be ideal for charging flooded lead acid as has equalizing option. http://arduinoalternatorregulator.blogspot.co.uk

My main reasons for interest in lithium batteries is, as nicknorman said, the ability to fast charge - would be great to only have to run the engine for 1hr a day in winter! Also great not to worry about getting to 100% SOC on a regular basis. 

Tom

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, Detling said:

It would seem that all the success  stories are from more benign climbs than the UK, the thorny issue of not charging at more than 0.05c (2A for a 400AH bank)if the batteries are below zero Centigrade, does not appear as far as I can see. 

I hadnt heard that? Is there a problem charging lion batteries in cold weather? if there is then they are a non starter ( not meant to be a pun )

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

I hadnt heard that? Is there a problem charging lion batteries in cold weather? 

Only insofar as you can only charge them very gently. So gently (0.05C) that they’d take way more time to charge than FLA which can be charged at 10C all day long. 

(At the same temp)

[Dr Bob]

7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I hadnt heard that? Is there a problem charging lion batteries in cold weather? if there is then they are a non starter ( not meant to be a pun )

Keep up, I'm always banging on about that! Bit of an issue if they are placed under a cruiser deck. The usual response I get when I say that - is they they are smaller so can be located 'in' the warm bit of the boat.