Ultramax Lithium batteries

[Alan de Enfield]

42 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Info from someone actually using lithiums is nearly as scarce as rocking horse droppings.

Available from all good stores :

[jimbob01]

Well im charging with various sources but reliant on solar mainly... i have 2 Morningstar mppts and an outback inverter...

Most all stuff goes through the outback with a lvd set at 24v ish... im still not finished with the system...

Ive been sort of collecting solar bits and pieces last 20yrs and have a reasonable system still not totally finished but close..

I get 120 amp into the batteries with full sun @24v

if i start the gene i get 90 more from the outback and 90 from a victron skylla charger ..

Since fitting these batteries 5 months ago ive not needed to run the gene.

Literally..and in winter!

You can take these right down to 0% and put 70 amp per battery back in... i have a 24v 520ah bank....so as these are 12v  they can take around 250amp ish charge current  when charging.

Good thing is they charge very fast.

They have a bms inside each battery which when u have the software is active as they charge.

Actually ive experimented and the cell banks hardly change quickly so i think its ok to balance every couple of months. 

They are supposed to be charged at 14.6 max

Im going not near that voltage as experienced folks seem to have found the key to ultra long life is possible by low pressure.. say 13.4...13.6v which is nearly fully charged anyway. 

 

I had 20 yuasa gel batteries b4 these

 1 bank was 12yr old when i finished with them...they served well but always a worry about soc ...hence the search for some reasonably priced lithium.... These ones are £1500 each new but after a long hunt i took a shot on a batch of second hand ones at less than a fifth of the price.

Ive found that they seem to cycle over and over with still 80% or more of original capacity ...

More importantly to me....usable capacity.

As we have :3kw immersion heater

2kw washing machine 

Toaster kettle electric cooker etc etc...

So ive got 13.6kwh of battery and i can use over 10kwh of power which is great... my diesel  overheads are right down ☺

 

 

[Dr Bob]

29 minutes ago, jimbob01 said:

They are supposed to be charged at 14.6 max

Im going not near that voltage as experienced folks seem to have found the key to ultra long life is possible by low pressure.. say 13.4...13.6v which is nearly fully charged anyway.

Jim, a lot of info there. Thanks. A few quick questions:

 Are you saying they are charging at 13.4 to 13.6V or are you up at 14.6V?

31 minutes ago, jimbob01 said:

 These ones are £1500 each new but after a long hunt i took a shot on a batch of second hand ones at less than a fifth of the price.

Ive found that they seem to cycle over and over with still 80% or more of original capacity ...

 

Do you know what sort of service the second hand ones you have bought have seen....number of cycles. Does the software show up that information? I will be back with more questions later! Thanks again.

[jimbob01]

These batteries log all cycles so as they do around 5000 .. the 100 or less these ones have means they are hardly used.

They arent like regular lead cells...they dont need to be charged to 100%

13.4 is like 60% ish

If you want to reach 100% they need 14.6 for about 2 hrs then the balance on the bms becomes active... the software enables this all to be viewed along with current in and out.

The  general consensus amongst the experts (im not one just new to these as well) seems to be stay  between 20-80% soc for super longevity 

Their needs are different to fla / gel batts

Seems if a few things are understood they should last decades... ☺

[WotEver]

9 minutes ago, jimbob01 said:

stay  between 20-80% soc for super longevity 

That is the one constant (sorry) that appears in all of the documentation that I’ve read. They’re really not keen on being charged to 100%. Obviously that’s another plus point in their favour, not a negative, although I suppose it requires some trickery with the Solar to stop at 80%?

[nb Innisfree]

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

That is the one constant (sorry) that appears in all of the documentation that I’ve read. They’re really not keen on being charged to 100%. Obviously that’s another plus point in their favour, not a negative, although I suppose it requires some trickery with the Solar to stop at 80%?

They seem to require an occasional equalising charge. 

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

They seem to require an occasional equalising charge. 

 

Really? 

Do you have a reference for that please?

Thanks

[nb Innisfree]

15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Really? 

Do you have a reference for that please?

Thanks

Read it somewhere as regards EV cars, charge to 100% occasionall to equalise cells, logical really., cells are bound to vary slightly in their charging performance just like lead acid batts. 

[jimbob01]

Maybe the word balance is meant instead of equalise?

The batteries i have are made up of about 400 cells in 4 banks of 100 cells at 3.65v per cell bank... the 4 banks are in series which give 14.6v  max voltage under charge.

My understanding is this voltage is necessary occasionally for a period of time in order to bring the 4 banks within the pack in to balance with each other within a reasonable amount of mv.

Having watched via computer software the cell banks in my batteries dont need to be brought up to max voltage so often.

Like i said im pretty new to these  too.

 

 

[Mike Hurley]

You Tube, Journey with Jono, he has just bought some for his boat. Victron ones i think, he gives a good explanation on why he did it.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Mike Hurley

[Dave_P]

 

[WotEver]

 

1 hour ago, Mike Hurley said:

You Tube, Journey with Jono, he has just bought some for his boat. Victron ones i think, he gives a good explanation on why he did it.

 

[Mike Hurley]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

 

 

I blame the internet speed in Kosovo, cold weather has slowed it down.

[Dr Bob]

15 hours ago, jimbob01 said:

These batteries log all cycles so as they do around 5000 .. the 100 or less these ones have means they are hardly used.

They arent like regular lead cells...they dont need to be charged to 100%

13.4 is like 60% ish

If you want to reach 100% they need 14.6 for about 2 hrs then the balance on the bms becomes active... the software enables this all to be viewed along with current in and out.

The  general consensus amongst the experts (im not one just new to these as well) seems to be stay  between 20-80% soc for super longevity 

Their needs are different to fla / gel batts

Seems if a few things are understood they should last decades... ☺

Sorry Jim, I am being a bit thick! Are you charging at 13.4V? I am not sure what voltages are needed for Lithiums although do realise that 14.6V is needed for 100%SoC. I am used to lead acids where the voltage is constant during the absorption phase.

Also when you get to 80% plus, does your bms (I think this means battery management software) then control the Volts and Amps going into the batteries or do you have to physically switch something to stop over charging?

Once they are up to 100%, again, does the bms balance the cells or does that need human intervention?

I understand Lead acids quite well but have seen little data on charging and balancing lithiums. Thanks again.

[Still-waters]

From the original Question based on the replies  some contact with suppliers/distributors and further searching, I have decided not to venture along the drop in lithium route. The problems re low temperature charging and reading that the life span of the batteries may  (unless very very carefully managed,) in reality be far less than advertised have strongly influence the change of heart. Seems to me that the drop in versions for narrow-boat usage have a bit to go yet till they are a true drop in replacement.  

[jimbob01]

In reality a few things need to be known in the looking after lithium batteries... the paranoia that developed when i first got mine soon left after i got my head round them.

The charging voltages need to be regulated.. on mine i choose to stay around 13.6 which will charge the batteries to 80% soc.

They arent like fla batteries which need the 3 stage charge etc and need to stay near 100% soc.

Its better for them (experts say) to stay between 20-80% soc

In fact ive found as long as you keep the voltage down when charging... (custom set ur mppt)and have a low voltage disconnect.. around 11.5-12v then there doesn't seem to be a lot to worry about.. other than balancing... battery manufacturers will love to sell you an expensive ballancing system.

Or you can do it manually if you can access the cell banks within.

The valence xp cells i have  have an internal bms which deals with ballancing

The cell bank voltages can be viewed on a pc by simply plugging in to the com port on the battery if you have the software.

I have the software..

Quite simple ..

Lvd

Hvd

A way of ballancing depending on battery.

I have wooden battery boxes which will be lined sometime 

Happy days..

 

 

[jimbob01]

Also for peoples info  i bought a heap of these 130ah batteries with various cycles on and ive found some with well over 2000 cycles on which still discharge over 110ah

And charge to 80% soc in an hour

About 2hrs to 100% soc

Which shows me they last...

The manufacturers claim 5000 cycles plus

All these are reasons why ive gone this direction.

Be happy

Jim.

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I understand Lead acids quite well but have seen little data on charging and balancing lithiums. Thanks again.

The below quote from this site answers most of your questions Bob. 

http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/352804/valence-u27-12-xp-lithium-batterys

To fully charge an LFP battery you need to charge it to 3.45V/cell (13.8v) and let the charge current taper off to C/50 (1/50 of the rated battery capacity). When the charge has finished the battery will drop down to around 3.35V/cell (13.4). If you float the battery at 13.4V after charging to 13.8V it will stay at around 99%SOC. If you charge to and float the battery at 13.4V you will get an SOC of around 92%-93%.

If you are not using the battery discharge it to around 50%SOC and leave it with nothing connected to it. If you are using it intermittently I would try to float charge it at around 50%SOC which is around 13.2-13.3V. You will have to play around with the voltage.

[Dr Bob]

19 minutes ago, WotEver said:

The below quote from this site answers most of your questions Bob. 

http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/352804/valence-u27-12-xp-lithium-batterys

 

 

Thanks Tony, that links seems to have all the info I was asking for! Well done! and thanks again to Jim. Keep us posted on how your batteries are doing.

[Sapphal]

My 5 x 110Ah FLA batteries are near the end of their life and the more I research Lifepo4 batteries they are definitely on my wish list.  i found this on youtube this morning which shows promise.  They haven't fully tested them yet - but has to be worth keeeping an eye on.  Can only find them on alibaba.com here https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/deep-cycle-12v-volt-lithium-battery_60644251572.html?spm=a2700.9114905.0.0.Q1CKrF

Got a quote for 409$ (£296) each and 329$ (£238) express delivery to the UK.  I would get 3 off (300Ah) for £1126 including delivery - bargain or what?

My present charger (came with the boat) is a Victron Centaur 20 amp, which I think is a bit low on power for the lithium's quick charge capabilities.

 

[WotEver]

The link is a bit sparse in detail unless I missed something. What BMS system do they come with? If none, what are you intending to use with them?

[notts_alan]

Watch yourself using Alibaba , last time I lost over 2 thousand pounds dealing with a trusted gold seller , nothing at all I could do about it , only half what I ordered was sent and even then the quality was very poor , I have never been back.

[WotEver]

Oh, just watched the vid. Looks like they have an internal BMS. Any documentation available for them anywhere?

[TheBiscuits]

16 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Oh, just watched the vid. Looks like they have an internal BMS. Any documentation available for them anywhere?

There is a sales spec sheet on the alibaba link

[WotEver]

10 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

There is a sales spec sheet on the alibaba link

Yeah, but I was looking more for ‘can the be paralleled?’, ‘Do they require balancing?’, ‘How?’ Etc