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Open Canal Map ANDROID app Beta testers


reg

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11 hours ago, Michael Donning said:

I hacked together a little route planner for our journey last year. It was basically a web site which ran locally on android (within the firefox browser).

It used downloaded CSV data from CanalPlanAC (converted to JSON). The "logic" was done in Javascript using the "Leaflet" library and some previoisly downloaded  map tiles.

If it is of any use I can pack the thing together and provide it to the developer. (in its current form it was basically limited to the GU and some "sidearms")

 

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Nice.. yes please. You can email me Tom@opencanalmap.uk . I had some idea about animating the camera so it traces the route of the canal. This sounds like it could provide the data to do that as well. Cheers.

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23 hours ago, toms1 said:

Good idea about getting the google map to open in the same place - just figured out how to do that - I'll include that in the next update to the app - cheers :)

There is a API to connect to CanalPlan I believe - don't know if they would mind me adding that - primary focus is on building tools to let users update the maps first off though.

You'd need to talk to Nick about that - if you want to do that then its probably worth starting a thread on the little forum we have on Canalplan for discussing things..... I do think that if we're not careful we're going to end up with multiple incompatible data sets which are all out of date....

We did have this "feature request"

https://canalplan.eu/bugtrack/view.php?id=31

 

Edited by StephenA
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1 hour ago, StephenA said:

. I do think that if we're not careful we're going to end up with multiple incompatible data sets which are all out of date....

Guilty, but my datasets were done as a private exercise and as a way of researching what was out there, don't expect to publish them as, as you say, danger of duplication and error propagation. 

What I would like to see Tom is some idea of the objective of your App basically how do you envisage it ending up, happy to assist in testing but would be useful to have some understanding of your vision of the end result.

Is it worth getting some views on this? 

My basic view is broadly in line with Arthur's I. E keep it simple as a navigation aid whilst traveling. 

 

 

Edited by reg
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5 hours ago, StephenA said:

You'd need to talk to Nick about that - if you want to do that then its probably worth starting a thread on the little forum we have on Canalplan for discussing things..... I do think that if we're not careful we're going to end up with multiple incompatible data sets which are all out of date....

We did have this "feature request"

https://canalplan.eu/bugtrack/view.php?id=31

 

Ok - I've registered on your site - but can't post - maybe needs approval.. Yea I didn't really research what data was out there when I started this. I just came across the CRT open data then CanalMap.net contacted me on here and now I'm using his data too. A central repository for the data might be an idea. Michael who posted about his project earlier in this thread has sent me a rather impressive bit of javascript that uses canal plan data to calculate journey time on the fly. This can easily be incorporated into the app if you and Nick were happy for that to happen. I'll check in the canal plan forum tomorrow and see if I can start a discussion about it there. Cheers.

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30 minutes ago, toms1 said:

Ok - I've registered on your site - but can't post - maybe needs approval.. Yea I didn't really research what data was out there when I started this. I just came across the CRT open data then CanalMap.net contacted me on here and now I'm using his data too. A central repository for the data might be an idea. Michael who posted about his project earlier in this thread has sent me a rather impressive bit of javascript that uses canal plan data to calculate journey time on the fly. This can easily be incorporated into the app if you and Nick were happy for that to happen. I'll check in the canal plan forum tomorrow and see if I can start a discussion about it there. Cheers.

No approval needed - you login to Canalplan on the home page and then you should be able to go into the forum (its under Changes, Bugs & Ideas) and post  ... the forum sees you as a registered user.

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34 minutes ago, toms1 said:

... Michael who posted about his project earlier in this thread has sent me a rather impressive bit of javascript that uses canal plan data to calculate journey time on the fly...

The journey time in my little tool is based on the CanalPlan journey time intervals included in their CSV export. Just added up. (People can customize these on the CanalPlan site AFAIR).

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On 20/01/2018 at 21:13, Michael Donning said:

The journey time in my little tool is based on the CanalPlan journey time intervals included in their CSV export. Just added up. (People can customize these on the CanalPlan site AFAIR).

I've made a import function for Canal Plan AC csv files - it just follows the route with the camera at the moment but could display the journey times too. No point putting a route planner in the app when CP can do that.

https://opencanalmap.uk/2018/01/22/loading-canal-plan-ac-files/

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9 minutes ago, toms1 said:

I've made a import function for Canal Plan AC csv files - it just follows the route with the camera at the moment but could display the journey times too. No point putting a route planner in the app when CP can do that.

I've seen in their forum that CanalPlan can also deliver JSON-Files. But basically, that makes no difference.

I still don't see the point of the moving camera. Either you are using the map while on the canal then the camera might just follow the GPS. Or you are mooring/at home then you can manually scroll the map on which the route is displayed.

Route planning is tedious to implement. So it is a good idea to query CanalPlan for that as long as you keep the last route stored. Just have an interface to add the waypoints for the route query (from/to maybe stopovers like: From "here" (=GPS) to "winding hole" to "home marina").

The queried data will be sufficient to display nice lists with distances and travel times (with a filter for mooring/winding holes/locks/junctions etc.).

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29 minutes ago, Michael Donning said:

I've seen in their forum that CanalPlan can also deliver JSON-Files. But basically, that makes no difference.

I still don't see the point of the moving camera. Either you are using the map while on the canal then the camera might just follow the GPS. Or you are mooring/at home then you can manually scroll the map on which the route is displayed.

Route planning is tedious to implement. So it is a good idea to query CanalPlan for that as long as you keep the last route stored. Just have an interface to add the waypoints for the route query (from/to maybe stopovers like: From "here" (=GPS) to "winding hole" to "home marina").

The queried data will be sufficient to display nice lists with distances and travel times (with a filter for mooring/winding holes/locks/junctions etc.).

Yep - the camera was just to do something simple with the data.

Trouble with it is that it will end up showing a countdown of locks to your destination - which could be quite depressing... :)

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I've only just caught up with the dispaly update to show locks on the downloaded maps. Seems to be working well now. Thanks for sorting that Tom. The link to canalplan sounds really good which ever way you take it. Keep us posted on when you update the beta version. We should be out for a cruise on Wednesday so will try it live and see how it works with the GPS.

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1 hour ago, Michael Donning said:

Route planning is tedious to implement. So it is a good idea to query CanalPlan for that as long as you keep the last route stored.

Have to agree with that. 

Just a thought  on an alternative approach to consider bearing in mind that canal plan has already done the 'tedious' work over many years. Canal plan has a route export function.  Would it not be simpler to plan the route in canal plan, export it and then have an import function in opencanal to overlay the route in android. Possibly much simpler to implement as the grunt work is being done in canal plan which is designed to do that work. Opencanal then only needs to provide an import function for  canal plan exported routes. 

Simple implementation

Opencanal Android remains lean. 

Just a thought

ETA

Just had an additional thought that if the canal plan exports were in kml I could also import them into locus maps as a route. 

Edited by reg
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3 minutes ago, reg said:

Just a though on an alternative approach to consider bearing in mind that canal plan has already done the 'tedious' work over many years. Canal plan has a route export function would it not be simpler to plan the route in canal plan, export it and then have an import function in opencanal to overlay the route in android. Possibly much simpler to implement as the grunt work is being done in canal plan which is designed to do that work. Opencanal then only needs to provide an import function for  canal plan exported routes. 

Just a thought

+1

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57 minutes ago, reg said:

Have to agree with that. 

Just a thought  on an alternative approach to consider bearing in mind that canal plan has already done the 'tedious' work over many years. Canal plan has a route export function.  Would it not be simpler to plan the route in canal plan, export it and then have an import function in opencanal to overlay the route in android. Possibly much simpler to implement as the grunt work is being done in canal plan which is designed to do that work. Opencanal then only needs to provide an import function for  canal plan exported routes. 

Simple implementation

Opencanal Android remains lean. 

Just a thought

ETA

Just had an additional thought that if the canal plan exports were in kml I could also import them into locus maps as a route. 

It would seem the sensible thing to do ...

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2 hours ago, reg said:

 

Just had an additional thought that if the canal plan exports were in kml I could also import them into locus maps as a route. 

You can export canalplan routes as kml. On the export menu it is spelt out in full as "Google Earth (Keyhole) Markup Language"

Edited by David Mack
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41 minutes ago, David Mack said:

You can export canalplan routes as kml. On the export menu it is spelt out in full as "Google Earth (Keyhole) Markup Language"

Thanks just tried it and imported into locus maps pro, works well, very quick and easy to do. 

Similar import function in opencanal could be good. 

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3 hours ago, reg said:

Have to agree with that. 

Just a thought  on an alternative approach to consider bearing in mind that canal plan has already done the 'tedious' work over many years. Canal plan has a route export function.  Would it not be simpler to plan the route in canal plan, export it and then have an import function in opencanal to overlay the route in android. Possibly much simpler to implement as the grunt work is being done in canal plan which is designed to do that work. Opencanal then only needs to provide an import function for  canal plan exported routes. 

Simple implementation

Opencanal Android remains lean. 

Just a thought

ETA

Just had an additional thought that if the canal plan exports were in kml I could also import them into locus maps as a route. 

Yep - that's what I've done...

https://opencanalmap.uk/2018/01/22/loading-canal-plan-ac-files/

 

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Canalplan is indeed great for planning routes, I use it before every trip to plan stops. What it isn't so good at -- unless you print out a detailed itinerary (kill the trees!) or have online access (which needs a PC not a smartphone) and lots of time to replan -- is telling you where you could get to if plans go wrong or you get delayed, not exactly uncommon.

Being able to see (in real time, based on current time and location) what time you should get to a given place on the canal (or not) on a smartphone would be extremely helpful, in the same way that Google Maps is brilliant as a satnav app -- you always know when you'll get there. Of course without Google-style location tracking and speed estimation from everybody else's smartphones it won't be quite as accurate, but it would be a big advance on anything else.

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

Canalplan is indeed great for planning routes, I use it before every trip to plan stops. What it isn't so good at -- unless you print out a detailed itinerary (kill the trees!) or have online access (which needs a PC not a smartphone) and lots of time to replan -- is telling you where you could get to if plans go wrong or you get delayed, not exactly uncommon.

Being able to see (in real time, based on current time and location) what time you should get to a given place on the canal (or not) on a smartphone would be extremely helpful, in the same way that Google Maps is brilliant as a satnav app -- you always know when you'll get there. Of course without Google-style location tracking and speed estimation from everybody else's smartphones it won't be quite as accurate, but it would be a big advance on anything else.

On the preferences tab you can select to show  cumulative miles/locks/hours. That makes it easier to work out roughly where you will be in X hours time.

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7 hours ago, IanD said:

Canalplan is indeed great for planning routes, I use it before every trip to plan stops. What it isn't so good at -- unless you print out a detailed itinerary (kill the trees!) or have online access (which needs a PC not a smartphone) and lots of time to replan -- is telling you where you could get to if plans go wrong or you get delayed, not exactly uncommon.

Being able to see (in real time, based on current time and location) what time you should get to a given place on the canal (or not) on a smartphone would be extremely helpful, in the same way that Google Maps is brilliant as a satnav app -- you always know when you'll get there. Of course without Google-style location tracking and speed estimation from everybody else's smartphones it won't be quite as accurate, but it would be a big advance on anything else.

Nick and I were looking at adding "average" timings to canalplan so basically we'd set an average time for each bit of the canal based on actual timings and use those, along with a planners "personal" averages to work out how long bits of canal would take to navigate.  I did some work based on tracks I'd recorded but it needs a lot more data... Tom's app, if it recorded that information and allowed people to upload it would give us that base data....  It would also allow us to identify "hot spots" where timings can go out of the window (such at Wheaton Aston Lock)

Edited by StephenA
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2 hours ago, StephenA said:

Nick and I were looking at adding "average" timings to canalplan so basically we'd set an average time for each bit of the canal based on actual timings and use those, along with a planners "personal" averages to work out how long bits of canal would take to navigate.  I did some work based on tracks I'd recorded but it needs a lot more data... Tom's app, if it recorded that information and allowed people to upload it would give us that base data....  It would also allow us to identify "hot spots" where timings can go out of the window (such at Wheaton Aston Lock)

Interesting idea. Would need to think about privacy of the data - could give location away if done badly. For me knowing the number of locks, movable bridges and miles to destination would give me more of an idea than the time. We're quite slow so a canal plan 5 hour day usually takes us 7 hours - I think of canal plan as the fastest possible time. Maybe the app can learn your dividing factor for time - in this case mine would be about 0.7 - but can change depending on how many crew / sharing the locks with another boat etc... That factor could feed into canal plan perhaps.

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CanalPlan already allows to set inidividual speeds for different waterway types and locks/swing bridges in the preferences.

But using "realistic" average times would nevertheless be interesting. Especially if the "season" and the individual "profile" would be taken into account.

This might give a better impression about travel times on very popular canals. (Like the Llangollen in Summer Holidays) including wait times at locks.

If inidividual travel times/gps will be collected it might be very important to let the user tell the app if it is mooring (filling up water, eating, etc.) or just standing by for a lock becoming available.

 

In my very limited personal experience as a hireboater on the GU I also found that the default travel times of canalplan ac were a bit optimistic. 3 1/4 mp/h average on a "broad" canal weren't achievable. Our trusty narrowboat became uncomfortable when getting above 3.5/3.6 mph (also the wash then often began to show). And on a big percentage of the canal we had to travel anyway on tickover (which was around 1,5 to 2,0 mph) because of mooring boats or we had to slow down because of bridges/tunnels/narrow bends etc.

(I read those speeds using the "OruxMaps" app)

Edited by Michael Donning
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16 minutes ago, Michael Donning said:

might be very important to let the user tell the app if it is mooring (filling up water, eating, etc.) or just standing by for a lock becoming available.

I think that is the stumbling block. How does it know when your boating and not walking the dog etc...

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5 hours ago, StephenA said:

It would also allow us to identify "hot spots" where timings can go out of the window (such at Wheaton Aston Lock)

That could make a very good starting point in that identifying hot spots and variations in hot spot transit times could potentially allow for alerts on potential bottlenecks ahead. 

E g my  personal experience of Watford locks is that can take between 30 mins and 3 hours, similarly for Foxton locks, Hatton flight etc,. 

Would it be worth it if another thread, separate from this,  was started specifically asking forum members to Identify what they consider to be the major hot spots where transit times are unpredictable?

Some parameters for hot spot transit times could possibly be determined from this input

E. G single handed,locking with crew(crew size and experience) shared locking, Volockies assisted locking, type of user (inexperienced hire boat) ,seasonal variations, etc, etc

In fact it might be worth asking what caused a variation in transit time from a nominal norm transit time. 

Is it worth doing this? 

Eta 

I think obtaining just a list of potential hot spots from forum members might be a good starting point all of the other info could obtained a later stage. 

Worth doing? 

Edited by reg
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