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Long distance tow....?


Oldjack

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I am not aware on any specific qualification.

I was particularly careful in my posts to make no mention of a 'qualification'.

However - the 'towing boat' would need both a commercial licence and commercial insurance with cover for towing.

It may be useful if someone who has experienc of commercial towing on the inland waterways gave their proffesional opinion. It might avoid the element of "armchair quarterbacking" which sometime cofuses the issue on this site.

 

Howard

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Used to do this kind of stuff sometimes in the early 80s. Yes we had insurance and commercial licence. Used to pick up hire boat sinkers, houseboats to dry docks relocation boats. Only on canals.

We have thought of doing it again and  own ideal boat.. But licence and liability insurance makes it unfeasible unless you have continuous work.

its not 3 weeks. From base to base ( we are near braunston ) it's 2 weeksflat chat ( I wish) to Bristol and tug fees on the river, and floating harbour fees.

then it's minimum 3 weeks from there to fradley. Believe it or not I'd go all the way on the Thames  spending more $$$ and then up the Oxford not Brentford and gu simply because you'd be hitting wide boats on every bend, and you can breast upstream on the Thames.

you would need dumb barge fees or short licence on the Thames, more $$$.

up the Oxford and up to fradley. 3 weeks minimum.

three weeks hard work. Dodgy through Newbury at this time of year and through reading, with the river running.

you would hit stuff you would go aground, a modern stern on tow is bad on canals never mind with a river pushing behind it.

so with 2 crew at 200 each 5 weeks plus licences 1200 to post it overnight by lorry is cheap, and unstressful.

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14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I am very interested to know what qualification I would need to tow a boat on the canal, I appreciate the Thames could be a different ball game

I was musing that myself Where do I go & whom do I apply to & what kind of "Ticket "would I get to enable me to be a Qualified Boat Tower ? I would bet the owners of ex working pairs have no paper qualifications& the working family's didn't as a good" #couldn't read or write but they had no problems pair working The doing every thing by the book but a Minimum cost would be for me ii I was in a position to do it would be a no go.

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12 hours ago, howardang said:

It may be useful if someone who has experienc of commercial towing on the inland waterways gave their proffesional opinion. It might avoid the element of "armchair quarterbacking" which sometime cofuses the issue on this site.

 

Howard

Sometimes a professional opinion is not needed to state the obvious!

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19 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I am very interested to know what qualification I would need to tow a boat on the canal, I appreciate the Thames could be a different ball game

According to the MCA, for operation anywhere on canals, Tier 1 Boatmaster's Licence, which could be Level 1 if you don't go onto tidal waters, but would need to be Level 2 for tidal. It would need a towing endorsement.

Not sure how strictly this is applied, though. How many of the coal boat skippers hold a Boatmaster's Licence, with endorsements for general cargo, liquidified gas cargo and oil?

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46 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

According to the MCA, for operation anywhere on canals, Tier 1 Boatmaster's Licence, which could be Level 1 if you don't go onto tidal waters, but would need to be Level 2 for tidal. It would need a towing endorsement.

Not sure how strictly this is applied, though. How many of the coal boat skippers hold a Boatmaster's Licence, with endorsements for general cargo, liquidified gas cargo and oil?

Surely that applies for carrying fare paying passengers, not towing or commercial carrying. However what an insurance company would demand may be something different.

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53 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Surely that applies for carrying fare paying passengers, not towing or commercial carrying. However what an insurance company would demand may be something different.

From MGN 469 (Inland Waterways – Non-Passenger Vessels: Applicable Safety Standards for Vessels Operating Solely on Inland Waterways in the United Kingdom)

Quote

11 Master’s qualification requirements

12.1 The Master of a UK inland waterway non-passenger vessel must hold a valid MCA Boatmaster’s Licence, or an equivalent (or higher) qualification. The statutory requirements are set out in: The Merchant Shipping (Inland Waterway and Limited Coastal Operations) (Boatmasters’ Qualifications and Hours of Work) Regulations 2006 (SI 2006/3223); - MSN 1808 and MGN 334 give further information and advice.

From MSN 1853 (which superceded MSN1808)

 

2. Application and Scope of the BML Regulations

2.1 A BML, BMC or alternative qualification3 specified in this MSN is required for the masters of: Passenger Ships  Class IV, V, VI and VI(A) including Passenger Ships Operating Solely in UK Categorised Waters and High Speed Craft including Hovercraft operating solely in UK categorised waters and limited coastal areas. Non-Passenger Ships  Class IX(A) and IX(A)(T) Descriptions for the classification of these vessels are contained within Annex 1.

Annex 1 defines Class IX(A) as "Vessels other than passenger ships and tankers which do not proceed to sea" .

This is also defined in MGN 469 as

 

1.2 “Inland waterway non-passenger vessel” means a vessel that does not go to sea, and does not carry more than 12 passengers as part of its normal operations, including but not restricted to:- - dry freight vessels; - tanker vessels; - container vessels; - workboats, including specialist vessels such as crane barges or dredgers;  tugs and pushers.

1.3 This definition does not include private pleasure vessels, although these vessels are not entirely exempt from some of the requirements listed below, in particular safety of navigation aspects and pollution prevention. Additionally, local authority and other inland waterway authorities and organisations may have standards for pleasure vessels.

Unlike passenger vessels (>12 passengers), they are not surveyed by the MCA, and thus do not have a Certificate, but the classification remains.

As I said before, I'm not sure how much this is enforced. The MCA seem a bit like like CaRT in that they interpret legislation to suit themselves (which is mostly a very good thing, as otherwise it becomes unworkable :D). 

 

 

Edited by Iain_S
Half the post not visible! Possibly missing {/quote} and it's not letting me edit!!!
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21 hours ago, Peter X said:

The idea of fitting an outboard sounds worth looking into too. The hardest part of the journey for it would be going upriver, i.e. the short bit from Bristol up the Avon then doing the Thames from Reading to Oxford. I haven't been on the Avon, but would imagine that a good outboard engine would be enough to push a modern 60' narrow boat safely up the non-tidal Thames under normal conditions.

The issue is not so much whether an outboard can move a 60' narrowboat forwards, but whether the engine can bring the boat to a safe and controlled stop when required. Finding sufficient petrol would also be an issue.

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Just now, rasputin said:

why?

Because most marinas sell diesel but not petrol. The Thames marinas do generally sell petrol, but at an eyewatering price. Buying in bulk away from the water might be considered as an option, but the transportation and storage of what could be quite a large quantity of petrol brings obvious risks. 

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6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

In which case I’m impressed you reckon you could complete the tow in only three weeks! 

Well I probably couldn’t or wouldn’t want to, but these professional boat moving types do seem to put in very long hours. It took us a week to traverse the KandA and with 2 boats breasted up (the tug and the unpowered) it wouldn’t take much longer through locks, a little longer on the flat, but that could be made up by longer crusing hours. Couple of days up the Thames, then things get a bit slower with narrow locks. It would take us about 7 days to get from Oxford to Fradley, so adding 5 more days for narrow locks and slow towing doesn’t seem unreasonable. But we are talking about long days 7 days/week, 2crew and I haven’t allowed for positioning the tug to Bath.

Edited by nicknorman
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3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

......boat moving types do seem to put in very long hours.

Being the pedant you are reputed to be, I am surprised that you consider 'hours' to be of variable length.

As far as I know, all hours are all of the same duration (60 minutes), however, the number of hours worked by different people can vary.

If the 'length' of hours varied it would be very difficult to pay an 'hourly rate' and I reckon, that if asked, employees hours would be much 'shorter' than employers hours.

 

Happy New Year  - only 7 3/4 'standard length' hours away.

 

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Being the pedant you are reputed to be, I am surprised that you consider 'hours' to be of variable length.

As far as I know, all hours are all of the same duration (60 minutes), however, the number of hours worked by different people can vary.

If the 'length' of hours varied it would be very difficult to pay an 'hourly rate' and I reckon, that if asked, employees hours would be much 'shorter' than employers hours.

 

Happy New Year  - only 7 3/4 'standard length' hours away.

 

It is a turn of phrase which carries a well known meaning. Of course if you split it up into its component words and try to analyse it empirically, you will get a different meaning. Welcome to the English language. Perhaps German would suit you better?

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3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Well I probably couldn’t or wouldn’t want to, but these professional boat moving types do seem to put in very long hours. It took us a week to traverse the KandA and with 2 boats breasted up (the tug and the unpowered) it wouldn’t take much longer through locks, a little longer on the flat, but that could be made up by longer crusing hours. Couple of days up the Thames, then things get a bit slower with narrow locks. It would take us about  9 days to get from Oxford to Fradley, so adding 3 more days for narrow locks doesn’t seem unreasonable. But we are talking about long days 7 days/week and I haven’t allowed for positioning the tug to Bath.

I was about to ask would it make better sense to breast them up? Along KandA, thames and GU then tow last bit?

I've met, (and helped), single handers towing boats who seem to manage without fuss. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Being the pedant you are reputed to be, I am surprised that you consider 'hours' to be of variable length.

As far as I know, all hours are all of the same duration (60 minutes), however, the number of hours worked by different people can vary.

If the 'length' of hours varied it would be very difficult to pay an 'hourly rate' and I reckon, that if asked, employees hours would be much 'shorter' than employers hours.

 

Happy New Year  - only 7 3/4 'standard length' hours away.

 

Hmm, now that wasn't always true. For instance:

Quote

mid-13c., from Old French hore "one-twelfth of a day" (sunrise to sunset)

Japan also used such a system:

index_ph01.jpg

meaning they had to make clocks that ran at variable rates. Note the two different verge mechanisms on top:

JapaneseClock2.jpg

 

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15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ich spreche nur ein bisschen deutsch aber nicht zer gut.

Had an office just outside Hamburg for many years so managed to pick up a little of the 'lingo' - useful on the 'Herbertstraße'

And the Reeperbahn.   :giggles:

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46 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But we are talking about long days 7 days/week, 2crew and I haven’t allowed for positioning the tug to Bath.

 

Ok so the tow is 21 days' work for two blokes at say £60 a day if they are dead cheap. Plus say 14 days for one bloke to get the tug there in the first place.

(21 x 2) + 14 = 56 days

56 days @ £60 = £3,360

Plus say £140 for diesel = £3,500.

 

Who here would do it for £60 a day??

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6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ok so the tow is 21 days' work for two blokes at say £60 a day if they are dead cheap. Plus say 14 days for one bloke to get the tug there in the first place.

(21 x 2) + 14 = 56 days

56 days @ £60 = £3,360

Plus say £140 for diesel = £3,500.

 

Who here would do it for £60 a day??

Ok, my hypothetical offer, £700 plus diesel and thames license. Door to door. 

 

Maybe £500

Edited by Goliath
Better offer
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