London Livaboard Life in the Morning Star

[Jen-in-Wellies]

A good article in the Morning Star of all places on the perils and pitfalls of living on board in London as an alternative to that cities insane rents and house prices. Written by someone who has clearly been there and done that. Unusual for a newspaper article in actually being quiet well researched and with few obvious howlers. Worth reading for those new to boating and thinking it is a cheap and easy way of living.

Jen (who can't be a red under the bed as the space is filled with boxes!)

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A good article in the Morning Star of all places on the perils and pitfalls of living on board in London as an alternative to that cities insane rents and house prices. Written by someone who has clearly been there and done that. Unusual for a newspaper article in actually being quiet well researched and with few obvious howlers. Worth reading for those new to boating and thinking it is a cheap and easy way of living.

Jen (who can't be a red under the bed as the space is filled with boxes!)

 

I agree. A refreshing and accurate portrayal. 

The only bit I found odd was how the author hinted that he wasn't 'welcomed into the boating community' as easily as he expected, but this was never explained or expanded upon.

"My entry to the boating scene was not so difficult to adjust to in terms of boat life itself, but it was in terms of the “community” often venerated in conversations. "

[Matt&Jo]

Perhaps he alluded to the outlook of those already canal dwellers who chose a life on the cut for lifestyle reasons judging him moving onto a boat for housing, economic and specific financial situation altho again this was not covered?

It' no secret that people who chose a life on the cut want to help keep the status quo and I've heard it said many times on the cut in pubs and on youtube that canal folk try to dissuade people looking to move onto the cut in order to preserve and promote a free flowing well cared for waterway rightly or wrongly.....im not airing my opinions on that specific situation lol.......altho overcrowding is a very valid concern

[matty40s]

I also think the boating community in London is completely different from the wider boating community up and down the canals and rivers.

[blackrose]

6 minutes ago, Matt&Jo said:

It' no secret that people who chose a life on the cut want to help keep the status quo and I've heard it said many times on the cut in pubs and on youtube that canal folk try to dissuade people looking to move onto the cut in order to preserve and promote a free flowing well cared for waterway rightly or wrongly.....im not airing my opinions on that specific situation lol.......altho overcrowding is a very valid concern

And let's not forget the members of this forum who frown on those living on boats, especially if they are deemed to be doing so as a cheaper and more viable lifestyle rather than a purist love of boating and the waterways. Personally I think that peoples' basic need for shelter and accommodation is far more important than an affluent property owning boater's hobby, and their desire for fewer moored boats and a visitor mooring.

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

And let's not forget the members of this forum who frown on those living on boats, especially if they are deemed to be doing so as a cheaper and more viable lifestyle rather than a purist love of boating and the waterways. Personally I think that peoples' basic need for shelter and accommodation is far more important than an affluent property owning boater's hobby, and their desire for fewer moored boats and a visitor mooring.

However when the IWA now rule the direction of any consultations in CRT and the new Waterways Minister quotes them in his inaugural press release, I dont see a happy ending....

[MtB]

That article makes me realise we no longer seem to have ANY London boaters posting here. Or do we?

Lady Muck was the last to leave, IIRC. 

CWF has become quite an 'echo chamber' since the Great Purge.

[Matt&Jo]

Can i just say tho if it were not for the good people on this forum liveaboards or not who may of been negative towards me innitialy helping out when they realise this is something i have thought about read and read and read about then i would be stuck and potential naiver then currently and buying a bad egg perhaps.......so thanks to all who have helped me.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I agree. A refreshing and accurate portrayal. 

The only bit I found odd was how the author hinted that he wasn't 'welcomed into the boating community' as easily as he expected, but this was never explained or expanded upon.

"My entry to the boating scene was not so difficult to adjust to in terms of boat life itself, but it was in terms of the “community” often venerated in conversations. "

Yes that struck me too. No idea if there is a Newbies vs Old Timers thing in London or not. Might just be a reaction experienced by the article author for other reasons. Sample size of one?

Jen

[Dartagnan]

7 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Yes that struck me too. No idea if there is a Newbies vs Old Timers thing in London or not. Might just be a reaction experienced by the article author for other reasons. Sample size of one?

Jen

He was possibly not wearing his black beret with a red star or indeed the che Guevara t shirt given the publication lol

[Sea Dog]

2 hours ago, blackrose said:

Personally I think that peoples' basic need for shelter and accommodation is far more important than...

It doesn't really matter what words come after that statement, as surely no-one can deny that it's absolutely one of the most important basic human needs. However, a boat is a very poor solution for all but a very few people who already love boating.  A housing crisis won't be solved by boats; it has to be solved by proper housing.

[Dartagnan]

I have just read the article and whilst I have no personal experience of the London boat scene I do with regard to the scandalous house/rent prices in London.  It is a well written article and as I currently sit in a Starbucks in London I look around and genuinely wonder how those on the minimum wage can possibly live in London where they work.

I recently passed a 2 bed flat which was our first purchase in London in the mid 80’s.  It cost £55K and was a struggle then.  It is now valued at £400K and I believe to rent they are about £1800pcm!  How on earth can youngsters and those on minimum wage possibly afford that?  How I wish I still owned that flat lol

i can fully understand why the situation on the London canals has come about.

[matty40s]

Its not long since I was working down there, running the operations of licenced catering and retail on some of the large London stations. 97% of employees were immigrants, at one induction we had 31 nationalities out of 45 candidates. Housing for these was generally several or more to a room, some on alternate shifts shared beds, and most pretty much worked and slept and nothing else......many having more than one job. A few I knew had a dutch barge with two families living on it, another had a broads cruiser with no facilities once her genny was nicked, she joined a gym for showers.

I suppose I came back up North in 2011 as the boating/mooring situation snowballed - BW and then CRT watched it happen without doing anything about it for the next few years. Had they not tried to implement the ill thought out Lee and Stort Moorings Plan in 2011 (which was dropped quickly), they may have been a bit more focused on the much larger incoming boats issue happening in Central London.

A good book to read about whats going on in London now is Ben Judah - This Is London.

[Peter X]

38 minutes ago, Dartagnan said:

I have just read the article and whilst I have no personal experience of the London boat scene I do with regard to the scandalous house/rent prices in London.  It is a well written article and as I currently sit in a Starbucks in London I look around and genuinely wonder how those on the minimum wage can possibly live in London where they work.

I recently passed a 2 bed flat which was our first purchase in London in the mid 80’s.  It cost £55K and was a struggle then.  It is now valued at £400K and I believe to rent they are about £1800pcm!  How on earth can youngsters and those on minimum wage possibly afford that?  How I wish I still owned that flat lol

i can fully understand why the situation on the London canals has come about.

I think you understate things. Assuming that by mid 80's you mean just before the brief property boom of 1985-88, I would expect the price ratio now to be about twice that at 15.

I bought a house in March 1985 in Beckenham for £43,000 which I think would now be worth £600,000 and rent at £2200pcm. That's a reasonably typical area in that it hasn't changed greatly, so I expect flats in most areas in and around London will have increased similarly. There will be some local variation, for example some areas in the East End have really gone upmarket.

[Chewbacka]

I believe that if you built 1 million affordable houses (which could be bought on min wage) there would still be a housing crisis in London as more and more will move into the capital.  The answer is to force employers out of London and into the regions. 

[Peter X]

Land values and building costs in London are such that any builder must either sell new properties at eye-watering prices or make a loss. As Chewbacka says, there is a lot of pent-up demand out there, and I'm sure all the private developers are busy putting up as much housing as they can get planning permission for on any land they have. Certainly lots of new blocks of flats have been springing up in and around Croydon in recent years and appear to be selling. Some of them might be called "affordable housing", but in London the phrase is a nonsense. But it all helps indirectly because it adds to the overall supply of housing in London. Now we just need the Grand Contour Canal so we won't be thirsty in future droughts.

I don't think employers need to be forced out of London into the regions, as high rents, staff shortages, congested transport etc. are already putting pressure on them. My feeling is that if more was done to make them aware of the possibilities, quite a few for whom it makes the most sense would move because it would reduce their costs enough to justify the upheaval.

[Jerra]

3 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

I believe that if you built 1 million affordable houses (which could be bought on min wage) 

Is it possible to build a house which can be afforded by somebody on minimum wage?

[mrsmelly]

7 hours ago, matty40s said:

I also think the boating community in London is completely different from the wider boating community up and down the canals and rivers.

I think everything about the people and community in London is different to anywhere else in the UK and that's why only about ten million live there and the other sixty million never will!!

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Is it possible to build a house which can be afforded by somebody on minimum wage?

I guess it depends on the building costs - ie Labour rates in London will be much higher than in Rural Yorkshire.

[Jerra]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess it depends on the building costs - ie Labour rates in London will be much higher than in Rural Yorkshire.

With a minimum wage of £7.50/hr and assuming they aren't in the gig economy following the recommendation of <28% of income (after tax) on mortgage can a house be realistically built anywhere to be affordable.  Just wondering.

[WotEver]

One of my neighbours runs a small building firm. It is his opinion that politicians of whatever colour are living in a dream land if they think that sufficient housing could be built in a decade to cover the shortfall, even if the costs could be met. There simply aren’t enough skilled brickies, chippies and sparks in this country to build them. Certainly I have noticed posters at the entrance to large house building sites around here calling out for experienced trades people, which would seem to support his opinion. 

There is no point in arguing what should or shouldn’t be done if the country doesn’t have the labour to achieve it.

See this article from nearly 3 years ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/10/uk-plumbers-builders-engineers-skill-crisis-economy

[Matt&Jo]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess it depends on the building costs - ie Labour rates in London will be much higher than in Rural Yorkshire.

I think it is affordable......houses that are not extravagant can be built from start to finish for aprox 70k+ a unit......that same house in london would cost perhaps 100k+ per unit and sold for 400k+ its pure location inflation......and its wrong....im young myself at 33 but i am luck in that i am on the property ladder and made a bit of money on houses....i couldnt do it now im sure and if i did it would not be a small mortgage say £250 a month like now but a wopper of over £1000 per month and thats not in london but darn sarth in southampton.

Friends of our live in birmingham and they have a similar size home as us drive and garage etc like us yet its worth 180k ours is another 100k due to location......great if u sell and move up north but not whilst u have a big mortgage etc....

All madness and scary to leave as it has made us money being in the housing market....so pulling out of that to get a boat is a big financial concern but how long can it last?

....

 

May i just add land added onto that is the biggy.......

Edited December 30, 2017 by Matt&Jo

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

One of my neighbours runs a small building firm. It is his opinion that politicians of whatever colour are living in a dream land if they think that sufficient housing could be built in a decade to cover the shortfall, even if the costs could be met. There simply aren’t enough skilled brickies, chippies and sparks in this country to build them. Certainly I have noticed posters at the entrance to large house building sites around here calling out for experienced trades people, which would seem to support his opinion. 

There is no point in arguing what should or shouldn’t be done if the country doesn’t have the labour to achieve it.

And quite a lot of the existing building workforce are from other EU countries. How many of those will be with us after Brexit?

[WotEver]

Just now, David Mack said:

And quite a lot of the existing building workforce are from other EU countries. How many of those will be with us after Brexit?

Probably most of them. But there’s a thread about that in The Pub. This isn’t really the place for that discussion. 

[AndrewIC]

1 hour ago, Peter X said:

I don't think employers need to be forced out of London into the regions, as high rents, staff shortages, congested transport etc. are already putting pressure on them. My feeling is that if more was done to make them aware of the possibilities, quite a few for whom it makes the most sense would move because it would reduce their costs enough to justify the upheaval.

HSBC are trying to, but apparently the staff don't want to go! https://www.ft.com/content/86845750-b4f0-11e7-a398-73d59db9e399