I'm back time to start the project.

[Calranthe]

Sorry for being away for awhile, Wife's illness got worse but hopefully after Christmas the new medication regime will be sorted and we can get to a level of stability.

During the down time we have had a lot of time to decide what we want to do, what is our goal and how to get there.

I also managed to visit while Paola was recuperating 4 Marina's and got to look at 17 different boats.

We are keeping our house, we would be crazy not to, it is paid for and gives us a home base in the midlands to explore from and if bad things happen the house is always a place to go.

We have a maximum fund of £20k, for the start of the project and have decided to go for a GRP in the 23-29ft size, this allows for Canal and River travel, it will not be a CC or full time live in boat, this is for us to go on adventures over time.

Time scale, it will take at least until next summer for wife to be well enough to boat, no rush after all I have been on a boat now even though it was for a short time I know its what we want.

I will be looking for a solid hull, Kathleen had a solid hull but was too small a 23-29ft especially with the modifications we are planning.

Once we have a solid hull the inboard/outboard + fuel tank petrol/diesel will be removed and an electric Torqeedo 4.0 (8-9hp eq) rated upto a 4t boat (From my math a viking 23ft is about 1.5t) with a quad bank (4* Li batteries 100kg) solar/wind chargers to top up (only top up) we will be mooring at a marina as our base of operation thus recharge should be simple (I will do all the math for the powers before any purchase is made)

Travel plan is simple start on the canals no set goals just see where it takes us.

I am expecting to pay between 5-10k for the boat I could go higher but will primarily be looking for a hull that fits our needs, plan to have it modified internals to fit our needs so what we start with does not really matter as long as it has a strong hull. (I have seen hundreds of boats in that price range especially if you do not mind them having a broken engine)

Will have it fitted to handle most UK weather.

**Before anyone mentions it I know that this project will cost more than 20k and I will never get my money back on it, hello! I'm the one who bought a 4k boat and was happy selling it for 750, resale value have never played a part in anything I have purchased in my life from computers, houses to boat. 20k is our starting fund, will have 5k per month after that purely put aside to cover modifications of the boat.

The only reason we had a cut off point on Kathleen was she was 20ft and that was too small, if she had been 25ft I would have had her picked up and get some one to do what I am now.

The other plus side to going electric is it makes the back end of a boat a lot more liveable.

 

While to a lot of people this may seem crazy the simple truth is this money I have set aside for this is just that set aside for this if the entire lot and 6 months of money went down the tube it would not affect our lifestyle or home.

In this last couple of months I have been away my wife has come close to dying a few times and if she did pass then at least I know we spent an amazing couple of days on Kathleen travelling the canals compared to that 4k or 40k means nothing at all, (its not her illness that is causing this its the medication explained below)

Some may think we are crazy to be doing this with an ill wife after all what happens if she gets ill on a boat, during the last 20 years of her illness she had a 25-30% survival rate (everyone else in the same trials died) you can do all you can with what time you have or you can not its personal choice.

I will be taking all the precautions like a medical emergency GPS system.

The illness she has is not a fast acting one, if the end is coming we know about it about 3 months in advance, the problem is the medication, for 18 years a certain drug which kept a certain protein at a certain level thus meaning the cancer didn't come back worked fine, yes it caused side effects but it was doable unfortunately last year it stopped working we do not know why it just did and new medication had to be tried, now the new medication did its job but the side effects included diabetes and 70% damage to her kidneys and her red blood cell count dropped drastically the summary is new drug did bad now we try other drug till we find one that does not kill her because that would be a bad side effect.

 

I just wanted to let those know what was going on and why I was not around, visits and online time will still be infrequent while we sort out the medication.

 

Ohh one cool thing, I have access to (when I need it) A VR camera and will be doing multiple full passes for the boat once the project gets going, this will allow me to put on my Oculus Rift VR headset and walk around the boat in full scale at home and plan things, the most fun about all of this is going to be taking a 1970-90 boat and bringing it into the future.  

[Alan de Enfield]

Good luck and may your God smile on you both.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Peter X]

Welcome back, I'm glad to see that our aborted trip on Kathleen back in the spring hasn't put you off boating, and hope you find the right boat for your unusual needs and get it converted in time for Paola to enjoy it. As you say, the money's a secondary consideration, but the boat will probably end up having some value anyway, there's got to be a market for boats people with disabilities can get in and out of easily.

VR headset eh? You do like your technology don't you!

[Ray T]

Best wishes, I think you are wise to keep your bricks and mortar.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Good luck and may your God smile on you both.

+1. 

I wish you and Paola all the best for the future

[Calranthe]

Thank you all.

The only reason I can see for selling the house would be if some time in the distant future we spent so much time on the boat and everything was fine (I am talking years) we may invest into a bigger vessel for live aboard and exploring the world but there is so much to cut our teeth on via canals then rivers then coastal that I can not even see that far ahead, especially when you start experiencing boat time and everything in life just sort of slows down.

going at a leisurely pace of 2-4 knots which is more than enough for canals I should be able to do 24 hours of travel out of the battery and motor setup which I think it is reasonable to translate to 3 days travel at 8 hours max a day, at the same time using lipo batteries for the rest of the system (meaning if i have 180a I actually have access to nearly all of that unlike the old kind of batteries).

Now the main flaw in this whole system is that in a normal system even with a petrol outboard  you can be charging via travelling, I will have to rely on spare batteries, solar and wind while away from a mooring place with electricity so redundancy systems and maybe some of the interesting technologies coming out could help.

The saving grace is from my understanding with my own prototype solar system I use at home to power one room a lithium potassium iron Battery does not need all the different charge levels a lead acid battery does, it can take any kind of power within reason and convert it to stored energy, be that solar wind or shore and it does not mind you taking most of that power back out.

Anyone who has used Solar on a boat knows it is good as a bonus but things like position of boat, time of year and weather can drop a 280w solar panel to producing 14w so I think I am right to be classing solar as bonus.

 

BTW I would like to point out, the main reason I have spent the time researching all of this and hopefully learning is the people on this forum

Edited December 21, 2017 by Calranthe

[cuthound]

31 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

Thank you all.

The only reason I can see for selling the house would be if some time in the distant future we spent so much time on the boat and everything was fine (I am talking years) we may invest into a bigger vessel for live aboard and exploring the world but there is so much to cut our teeth on via canals then rivers then coastal that I can not even see that far ahead, especially when you start experiencing boat time and everything in life just sort of slows down.

going at a leisurely pace of 2-4 knots which is more than enough for canals I should be able to do 24 hours of travel out of the battery and motor setup which I think it is reasonable to translate to 3 days travel at 8 hours max a day, at the same time using lipo batteries for the rest of the system (meaning if i have 180a I actually have access to nearly all of that unlike the old kind of batteries).

Now the main flaw in this whole system is that in a normal system even with a petrol outboard  you can be charging via travelling, I will have to rely on spare batteries, solar and wind while away from a mooring place with electricity so redundancy systems and maybe some of the interesting technologies coming out could help.

The saving grace is from my understanding with my own prototype solar system I use at home to power one room a lithium potassium iron Battery does not need all the different charge levels a lead acid battery does, it can take any kind of power within reason and convert it to stored energy, be that solar wind or shore and it does not mind you taking most of that power back out.

Anyone who has used Solar on a boat knows it is good as a bonus but things like position of boat, time of year and weather can drop a 280w solar panel to producing 14w so I think I am right to be classing solar as bonus.

 

BTW I would like to point out, the main reason I have spent the time researching all of this and hopefully learning is the people on this forum

Or you could use a small petrol powered "suitcase" generator to power a charger whilst you are moored or when cruising.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

Or you could use a small petrol powered "suitcase" generator to power a charger whilst you are moored or when cruising.

Unless you have an extraordinary long lead then this is not a particularly sensible suggestion.

Having a petrol suitcase generator sat running on the deck of a GRP cruiser is certainly one way to get headaches, or worse.

No reason not to run it for a few hours after a days cruising - but - running it on the bank well away from the boat.

[cuthound]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unless you have an extraordinary long lead then this is not a particularly sensible suggestion.

Having a petrol suitcase generator sat running on the deck of a GRP cruiser is certainly one way to get headaches, or worse.

No reason not to run it for a few hours after a days cruising - but - running it on the bank well away from the boat.

Should be ok in a suitably vented and self drained locker as long as the exhaust can discharge to the outside.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Should be ok in a suitably vented and self drained locker as long as the exhaust can discharge to the outside.

On a 25 foot boat ?

You cannot just modify the exhaust of a suitcase genny to vent outside a box, but, if you don't, then you will have problems with it drawing 'fresh' air, it will then then produce more Co.

We will just have to disagree on this one.

[Calranthe]

I thought about a small petrol generator but to me it sort of defeats the objective here, good idea and one I thought about myself but if at all possible I will try to avoid it.

I know with planning we should never be too far from a mooring but problems can always occur. 

It is coming up to 2 years now that every portable device in the house including the laptop has been solar powered, not by the prototype unit just by a planned out system.

We own 3 26w High efficiency fold out solar panels which are permanently hanging in our windows, they each charge a 26k lithium battery and 2 15k lithium batteries.

I cycle those batteries around the house and charge all our items via them even in the winter, by the time a battery is empty at least 2 more are full, so they just get switched.

On the boat all of the entertainment (Alexa, 4g mifi, laptop, tablets, phones and a portable dvd/bluray player with screen) will all be ran by those panels and batteries.

A Gas Bottle powered Stove will be the cooking/grill

Boat lights will also be on there own small lithium solar circuit.

I have a high powered battery/solar flood light for tunnels and it can be removed from the fixture.

 

Another minor issue is heating, now I will have new windows and insulation for the boat and a long with thermal curtains it goes a long way towards keeping heat in the boat but we will need a way to heat the boat, now there is a form of LPG heater that vents only to the exterior specifically designed for 25-30ft GRP boats it goes without saying that the boat will be well fitted with with smoke and mono alarms.

 

 

[thebfg]

Peterboat has an electric cruiser. I am sure he can offer great advice.

[Calranthe]

3 minutes ago, thebfg said:

Peterboat has an electric cruiser. I am sure he can offer great advice.

That is great news, I have found one of the great things about this forum is it allows me to note down all the ideas and some one who knows better can pop along and let me know if and why it is a bad idea.

[cuthound]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

On a 25 foot boat ?

You cannot just modify the exhaust of a suitcase genny to vent outside a box, but, if you don't, then you will have problems with it drawing 'fresh' air, it will then then produce more Co.

We will just have to disagree on this one.

I spent a significant part of my career installing gensets from 10kVA to 3000kVA into buildings (plus a few containers and trailers).

It cannot be being the wit of man to safely install a suitcase generator into a boat, as long as adequate provision for fuel & vapour leakage, exhaust and aspiration and cooling air is provided.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by cuthound
Clarification

[Sea Dog]

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unless you have an extraordinary long lead then this is not a particularly sensible suggestion.

Having a petrol suitcase generator sat running on the deck of a GRP cruiser is certainly one way to get headaches, or worse.

No reason not to run it for a few hours after a days cruising - but - running it on the bank well away from the boat.

I agree.  I'm pretty wary when running petrol outboards on a RIB, but running or filling a petrol generator anywhere on a confined boat is a dangerous practice in my book. Far too easy to get noxious exhaust fumes in the cabin and explosive vapour in the bilge. 

When the Amphibious Landing Ship (LPD for those in the know) was designed for the Navy, she was to be petrol free as all her boats were to be diesel. Unfortunately, the plan to replace petrol outboards with diesel for Royal Marine craft fell flat and petrol had to be carried. The new petrol stowage was built over the edge of the upper deck at the far aft end of the flight deck, ie in open air to disperse any fumes, as far away as possible for fire safety, and in a place where it could be dropped over the side remotely and easily. 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

It cannot be being the wit of man to safely install a suitcase generatorgenerator into a boat, as long as adequate provision for fuel & vapour leakage, exhaust and aspiration and cooling air is provided.

 

As on the cruiser Arniston on Windermere?

Edited December 22, 2017 by David Mack

[Murflynn]

I'm afraid the maths doesn't always work out in practice.  Whatever system you have you will find that any normal sized 'suitcase generator' will barely supply the same power that you will consume with a Torqeedo 4.0, so if you cruise for 8 hours in silence then you will have to attend to a genny running for at least 8 hours either while you are travelling or while you are moored up.  Suitcase gennies are great, but they are not silent.  They may appear to be quiet in a work environment, but are anything but when you are cruising silently or are moored up at the river bank on a calm evening.

IMHO, and based on my experience, the only way to operate an electric boat is to plan your journey so you can get a hook-up every night, and to have a small (and relatively quiet) petrol outboard hanging on the transom alongside your electric outboard, ready for the time that you need it (believe me, you will need it).  I use about 300 watts while cruising in my 16ft boat, I have 440AH lead acid, and 400W nominal solar array and I can manage about 6 hours cruising before I have to go petrol or stop to hook up.  I realise that Li batteries are more efficient, but at the end of the day the only maths that matters is 'what goes out has to be put back in'.  I have a suitcase genny but I leave it at home, because it defeats the whole purpose of electric cruising.

I suggest that if you intend to have electric power and rely on a genny to charge your batteries, you might as well go the whole hog and use the Fischer Panda system.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Murflynn

[Calranthe]

Like I said a gen would defeat the purpose but I do like the idea of having a small petrol outboard as a backup.

Your 440AH works out at about 220AH usable if I am thinking right is it a 12v or 24v system ?

The custom made battery I am looking at is a 26v 104AH = 2680wh from the data available 2 of those batteries will run the 4.0 for 10 hours at slow speed roughly 2.7 knots

Now the interesting thing is if the boat is only a 2 t max once fitted then the Torqeedo 2.0 may be enough and if so then 1 battery = 10 hours slow thus 4 batteries = 40.

This is all theoretical and in practice once the boat is ours and ready I will get some one a lot more knowledgeable than me to help with the calculations.

[Chewbacka]

32 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

Like I said a gen would defeat the purpose but I do like the idea of having a small petrol outboard as a backup.

Your 440AH works out at about 220AH usable if I am thinking right is it a 12v or 24v system ?

The custom made battery I am looking at is a 26v 104AH = 2680wh from the data available 2 of those batteries will run the 4.0 for 10 hours at slow speed roughly 2.7 knots

Now the interesting thing is if the boat is only a 2 t max once fitted then the Torqeedo 2.0 may be enough and if so then 1 battery = 10 hours slow thus 4 batteries = 40.

This is all theoretical and in practice once the boat is ours and ready I will get some one a lot more knowledgeable than me to help with the calculations.

I can see you using a low friction paint and polishing the hull to a mirror finish to minimise the drag to get the extra range from your batteries.  So whilst the rest of us take the boat out for blacking, you will be polishing.  If you really get the efficiency urge you can try different (aircraft type) strakes etc to minimise turbulence (drag) behind the boat  :-))

[Calranthe]

55 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I can see you using a low friction paint and polishing the hull to a mirror finish to minimise the drag to get the extra range from your batteries.  So whilst the rest of us take the boat out for blacking, you will be polishing.  If you really get the efficiency urge you can try different (aircraft type) strakes etc to minimise turbulence (drag) behind the boat  :-))

Well lets not stop there a nice jet turbo on the back and hydrofoil style wings below I mean what could go wrong trying to fly between each lock.

[Calranthe]

Laughing apart I think its going to be interesting to see how far you can take a boat like this into the self sufficiency realms, I mean we all know you can go backwards in time to steam engines and a lot of boaters I have talked to naturally eek every little bit out of a boats performance, constantly tweaking and just how well it can go.

Another not too crazy idea which would blow about £4,000 would be to have a custom solar power membrane built, you have probably seen them on land speed electric cars and long distance electric boats and planes, they map the entire upper surface of the boat/plane/car and fit custom cells, a 25ft boat could easily end up with 3-4KW of solar (the average for a house) and the bonus is they come with a none slip all weather coating that you can walk on.

That would mean even a worst case scenario of winters day you would be getting at least 400w

But that is a lot of money and a lot of specialised stuff that could go wrong.

[WotEver]

9 hours ago, Murflynn said:

if you cruise for 8 hours in silence then you will have to attend to a genny running for at least 8 hours

I think you’re overlooking the efficiency of charging lithium batteries. If OP used up 2860Wh as he suggests, he could replace that in an hour and a half with a 100A charger and 2kW genny

I think one of the most expensive purchases will be a heavy duty charger. 

On 21/12/2017 at 17:08, Calranthe said:

solar/wind chargers to top up

Those who have tried wind generally say that it’s a waste of time on UK inland waterways. It’ll rattle the boat and make a lot of noise but it won’t actually generate much. 

[Murflynn]

a typical yogurt pot wastes half the input energy just dragging that deep square transom through the water with accompanying turbulence.  I bought a hull with a very shallow transom and added a 'sugar scoop' (google racing yacht hull shapes) so that I have no turbulence at all.  I also spent days removing 30 years of antifouling from the bottom (it had been a sea boat kept on a tidal mooring), leaving polished gel coat.  Every little helps. 

regarding solar charging, I have 40sq.ft and I have never achieved more than 200w from the 500w nominal maximum, and even on a good summer's day it doesn't add up to even 1kWh.  Those solar boats cruising around the Caribbean are experiencing ideal conditions that we will never see.

checking on battery prices, I reckon 2800Wh will cost about £5 grand.  nice if you can afford it, just hope they have a long life.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Murflynn

[Alan de Enfield]

33 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

I have 40sq.ft and I have never achieved more than 200w from the 500w nominal maximum, and even on a good summer's day it doesn't add up to even 1kWh.  Those solar boats cruising around the Caribbean are experiencing ideal conditions that we will never see.

My solar "calculations" (estimates / expectations) are similar.

Due to Northern latitudes and the clouds/weather:

Summer Time=50% of rated output

Winter Time = 10% of Summer Time output

Hope for the best; plan for the worst.

I am occasionally very pleased with the outputs being better than expected, but I am rarely disappointed in the output levels.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Calranthe]

Exactly Solar/wind would just be top up, my prototype setup proved the same to me, I think 3-4 days capacity in the batteries plus maybe either a gen or small petrol outboard for emergencies yes you pay a lot for these Lithium Iron potassium but they have a cycle usage of 10+ years and a good charger will mean they can take as much as is fed to them without any harm and almost 100% of the available power is usable without damage.

A trickle feed from the solar, after all in a real world situation lets say a lock breaks down and I am stuck on the siding for a week, during that week the motor would not be run anyway and the amount one of these modern batteries drain when not in use can be less than 1% a month.

Modern phone technology has really increased lately for example I have a last years model Sony Experia which is setup as my emergency phone, I charged it to 100% 3 months ago and then turned it off and keep it the inside pocket of my main coat, I just powered it up and it is still at 100%

getting boat batteries like these you pay for it but they can be a complete game changer especially related to charging.

Imagine if on your NB you had a 100AH battery that you could use 99% of that power every day without harm and with a good ALT that same battery could recharge at what ever amps is fed to it.