Vertical clearance concerns...

[toomanyairmiles]

Hi everyone, I'm a novice to boating...

I'm considering purchasing a dutch barge (currently in the Netherlands) to use as a continuous cruising liveaboard in the London area, it's 3.5 metres wide, but has a vertical clearance of 2.75 metres. I'm wondering how limiting that clearance is going to be when moving around?

[MtB]

On 17/12/2017 at 21:24, toomanyairmiles said:

Hi everyone, I'm a novice to boating...

I'm considering purchasing a dutch barge (currently in the Netherlands) to use as a continuous cruising liveaboard in the London area, it's 3.5 metres wide, but has a vertical clearance of 2.75 metres. I'm wondering how limiting that clearance is going to be when moving around?

 

Welcome.

Given a lot of bridges are arch-shaped, is this boat arch-shaped too? I bet it isn't. So with a bit of thought the difficulty of answering your question ought now to be obvious. 

 

[Sea Dog]

11 minutes ago, toomanyairmiles said:

I'm wondering how limiting that clearance is going to be when moving around?

Moving around? In the London area, you say? There's a new concept - do they all do that?

[MtB]

I suggest you go out and about on some canal towpaths with a tape measure and do a bit (or a lot) of measuring of brisges in the areas you are thinking of cruising. There are no easy answers.

Much credit to you for thinking about it before buying a boat. Rather than buying one then moaning you can't fit through the bridges!  

[Momac]

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/meetings/wusig/WUSIG-waterway-dimensions-17-11-10.pdf

 

[toomanyairmiles]

47 minutes ago, MartynG said:

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/meetings/wusig/WUSIG-waterway-dimensions-17-11-10.pdf

 

Thank you. Extremely useful, if somewhat disheartening. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by toomanyairmiles

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, toomanyairmiles said:

Thank you extremely useful, if somewhat disheartening. 

The point being made above is that whilst a bridge may be (say) 14 feet wide at the bottom, due to the curved arch shape it may be only (say) 10 feet wide at its high point.

If your boat is near the max permissible height but is ten foot one inch wide  (or wider ) at its highest point then it will not get thru the bridge.

The BW figures given do not take into account the bridge profiles and are based on use by conventional canal boats.

The other measurement to be concerned about is 'water draft' most canals are only dredged to 3 feet - many of the Dutch barges are 4 foot + in depth.

If you intend to do what most of the boats in London do (and not move anywhere except to empty the toilet) then it shouldn't be a problem.

Are you aware that to get a licence the boat has to meet certain construction requirements and must pass an "MOT test" (Boat Safety Scheme Certificate - BSSC)

Many European boats do not comply with the UK Inland waterway requirements (BSSC) - eg one of our boats gas system is 100% rubber (flexible) hose which does not comply with UK requirements - fortunately that boat is not used on Inland waterways needing a BSS.

Not sure how you could get a non-compliant boat onto the 'canal system' so you could work on it - maybe you would have to go into a Sea based Marina and get the work done and the certificate issued before you could enter the Thames and the canal network.

 

Don't rush to spend your money - you need to do a lot more research.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[toomanyairmiles]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The point being made above is that whilst a bridge may be (say) 14 feet wide at the bottom, due to the curved arch shape it may be only (say) 10 feet wide at its high point.

If your boat is near the max permissible height but is ten foot one inch wide  (or wider ) at its highest point then it will not get thru the bridge.

The BW figures given do not take into account the bridge profiles and are based on use by conventional canal boats.

The other measurement to be concerned about is 'water draft' most canals are only dredged to 3 feet - many of the Dutch barges are 4 foot + in depth.

If you intend to do what most of the boats in London do (and not move anywhere except to empty the toilet) then it shouldn't be a problem.

I need to be in London only 3 to 6 months a year, for the rest of the time I work from home. What I had in mind was moving about a fair bit through the canal network, but I'm also interested in sailing coastal waters eventually. This particular boat meets the draught (1.02m), can handle coastal water, but the cabin is too tall and not collapsable, unfortunately. 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, toomanyairmiles said:

I'm also interested in sailing coastal waters eventually

Do you have any experience of this ?

It is very different to Rivers & Canals.

If you are looking for a dual-purpose boat you need to look at its build classification to assess its suitability.

Inland waterway boats are Class-D

Inshore estuaries are Class-C

To do any 'coastal cruising' you should be looking at Class B particularly as both the North Sea and the Irish Sea are so shallow and even a relatively light wind can have a huge effect on the wave action.

One of my boats is a 'Blue Water' 23 foot beam GRP cruising catamaran and is rated as 'Class A' - coming across the Med last year in a F6-7 was not pleasant. My other boat is Class-B and is similar to what you are looking at with a 14 foot beam, 4' 6" draft and a 9' 6" to 13' Air-Draft (depending on everything being folded down)

Being relatively narrow and little draft some Dutch Barges can roll like a pig, and whilst they are without question 'sea-worthy' they will give an extremely uncomfortable ride if you get a 'bit of a blow'.

Definitions of Boat Design Categories.

‘A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

‘D’ SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

 

 

[toomanyairmiles]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Do you have any experience of this ?

It is very different to Rivers & Canals.

If you are looking for a dual-purpose boat you need to look at its build classification to assess its suitability.

Inland waterway boats are Class-D

Inshore estuaries are Class-C

To do any 'coastal cruising' you should be looking at Class B particularly as both the North Sea and the Irish Sea are so shallow and even a relatively light wind can have a huge effect on the wave action.

One of my boats is a 'Blue Water' 23 foot beam GRP cruising catamaran and is rated as 'Class A' - coming across the Med last year in a F6-7 was not pleasant. My other boat is Class-B and is similar to what you are looking at with a 14 foot beam, 4' 6" draft and a 9' 6" to 13' Air-Draft (depending on everything being folded down)

Being relatively narrow and little draft some Dutch Barges can roll like a pig, and whilst they are without question 'sea-worthy' they will give an extremely uncomfortable ride if you get a 'bit of a blow'.

Definitions of Boat Design Categories.

‘A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

‘D’ SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

 

 

Very useful, thank you again. 

I don't have much experience, but I'm planning to take the relevant courses to learn. 

When it comes to living space I suspect I'm making unrealistic demands on my budget, the canal network and the types of boat available to me. It seems like I my best course is to try a narrowboat or a dutch steel cruiser and save!

[Momac]

Widebeam dutch barges make excellent accommodation but can be somewhat limited in range by their dimensions. 

Also be aware they may not necessarily be designed to be seaworthy. I heard of one that took on a lot of water after being caught out  - the side decks did not drain sufficiently and water was fed into the wheelhouse and from there into the engine bay .

It was later modified.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Also be aware they may not necessarily be designed to be seaworthy

That is why it is imperative to check out the 'classification' of any you are interested in.

[Momac]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That is why it is imperative to check out the 'classification' of any you are interested in.

I believe the classification is to some extent in the hands of the boat builder. 

 

.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

37 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I believe the classification is to some extent in the hands of the boat builder. 

 

.

 

To some extent - yes.

For each class, there are certain criteria that must be met and independently, tested, witnessed and ‘signed off’

Even for a NB there is a stability / heel test that MUST be undertaken, and I do wonder what proportion of ‘self-build’ actually do that, or just ‘sign-off’ the paperwork.

(I know some do, and they have explained the process in threads on the subject.)

[Bee]

If its an older boat it will not be constructed to any RCD standards anyway. Are you looking at an ex sailing barge?  (Tjalk type)? with a wheelhouse? It may be possible to rebuild the wheelhouse. With that height you are restricted to the Thames below Oxford, River Wey is out, also the River Lea (?),  I think that your idea of a boat in London is actually quite reasonable but not without the usual problems, overcrowded canals etc. , anyway it makes a lot more sense than buying / renting somewhere down there unless you are a millionaire. Personally I would be looking at a narrowboat . There is a Tjalk that offers sailing trips in the Falmouth area, can't remember the name I'm afraid, that would be a worthwhile day out and no doubt a lot of useful info as well.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

To some extent - yes.

For each class, there are certain criteria that must be met and independently, tested, witnessed and ‘signed off’

Even for a NB there is a stability / heel test that MUST be undertaken, and I do wonder what proportion of ‘self-build’ actually do that, or just ‘sign-off’ the paperwork.

(I know some do, and they have explained the process in threads on the subject.)

Cannot edit so additional info :

For all new boat of greater than 12 metres of hull length, with the exception of those for Design Category D, a Notified Body is required to assess the boat in respect of all Essential Requirements i.e. full assessment. In the case of full assessment the Notified Body will issue a Type, or in the case of a “one-off”, a Unit Examination Certificate or a Certificate of Compliance which should be included within the Technical Documentation.

[bargemast]

On 18/12/2017 at 10:42, Bee said:

If its an older boat it will not be constructed to any RCD standards anyway. Are you looking at an ex sailing barge?  (Tjalk type)? with a wheelhouse? It may be possible to rebuild the wheelhouse. With that height you are restricted to the Thames below Oxford, River Wey is out, also the River Lea (?),  I think that your idea of a boat in London is actually quite reasonable but not without the usual problems, overcrowded canals etc. , anyway it makes a lot more sense than buying / renting somewhere down there unless you are a millionaire. Personally I would be looking at a narrowboat . There is a Tjalk that offers sailing trips in the Falmouth area, can't remember the name I'm afraid, that would be a worthwhile day out and no doubt a lot of useful info as well.

Hi Richard, I could be wrong (of course) but I think that this is the one you had in mind, it is a Lemsteraak, which is a beautiful boat.

It would be a great experience to go for a trip on her, only for a day, as that's all they seem to offer, and only if the weather conditions are fair enough.

https://sailingbargedrifter.wordpress.com/

Peter.

[bargemast]

On 17/12/2017 at 23:56, Alan de Enfield said:

Do you have any experience of this ?

It is very different to Rivers & Canals.

If you are looking for a dual-purpose boat you need to look at its build classification to assess its suitability.

Inland waterway boats are Class-D

Inshore estuaries are Class-C

To do any 'coastal cruising' you should be looking at Class B particularly as both the North Sea and the Irish Sea are so shallow and even a relatively light wind can have a huge effect on the wave action.

One of my boats is a 'Blue Water' 23 foot beam GRP cruising catamaran and is rated as 'Class A' - coming across the Med last year in a F6-7 was not pleasant. My other boat is Class-B and is similar to what you are looking at with a 14 foot beam, 4' 6" draft and a 9' 6" to 13' Air-Draft (depending on everything being folded down)

Being relatively narrow and little draft some Dutch Barges can roll like a pig, and whilst they are without question 'sea-worthy' they will give an extremely uncomfortable ride if you get a 'bit of a blow'.

Definitions of Boat Design Categories.

‘A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

‘D’ SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

 

 

toomanyairmiles didn't give us any more details of the Dutch barge he's thinking of buying, but if it's an old one, the A-B-C-D classifications didn't exist, IFAIK these only came into life for pleasure boat when the HIN numbers started, so if it is an old(er) barge, there won't be a HIN number and no other classification of a category.

Peter.

[Naughty Cal]

3 hours ago, bargemast said:

toomanyairmiles didn't give us any more details of the Dutch barge he's thinking of buying, but if it's an old one, the A-B-C-D classifications didn't exist, IFAIK these only came into life for pleasure boat when the HIN numbers started, so if it is an old(er) barge, there won't be a HIN number and no other classification of a category.

Peter.

He doesn't give many details at all. Dutch barge can cover many different types of boat.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, bargemast said:

Hi Richard, I could be wrong (of course) but I think that this is the one you had in mind, it is a Lemsteraak, which is a beautiful boat.

It would be a great experience to go for a trip on her, only for a day, as that's all they seem to offer, and only if the weather conditions are fair enough.

https://sailingbargedrifter.wordpress.com/

Peter.

He did say it is in the Netherlands.

[Bee]

6 hours ago, bargemast said:

Hi Richard, I could be wrong (of course) but I think that this is the one you had in mind, it is a Lemsteraak, which is a beautiful boat.

It would be a great experience to go for a trip on her, only for a day, as that's all they seem to offer, and only if the weather conditions are fair enough.

https://sailingbargedrifter.wordpress.com/

Peter.

Hi Peter, That's the one, a beautiful boat as you say, I have sailed down there and it is a truly lovely place to sail, quite sheltered as well unless you get very brave and head out to sea, maybe if I have a few £'s left in the summer I will try a day out on her. Hope you are well, the boat is at St Jean de Losne at the moment, planning on the river Doubs next year (That's if they let us Brits into France after the Brexit stuff!)

[bargemast]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

Hi Peter, That's the one, a beautiful boat as you say, I have sailed down there and it is a truly lovely place to sail, quite sheltered as well unless you get very brave and head out to sea, maybe if I have a few £'s left in the summer I will try a day out on her. Hope you are well, the boat is at St Jean de Losne at the moment, planning on the river Doubs next year (That's if they let us Brits into France after the Brexit stuff!)

I don't think that you need to worry for the time being, and probably after they've finished will the Brexit stuff, it's hard to see them kicking out the Brits the day after.

They will surely still let the Brits in, but if they'll still let you in is the question .

 

Peter.

[X Alan W]

On 12/17/2017 at 23:38, toomanyairmiles said:

I need to be in London only 3 to 6 months a year, for the rest of the time I work from home. What I had in mind was moving about a fair bit through the canal network, but I'm also interested in sailing coastal waters eventually. This particular boat meets the draught (1.02m), can handle coastal water, but the cabin is too tall and not collapsable, unfortunately. 

If you are able to be any where  for around 6 months a year why not start with a narrow beam boat there is a fair bit of waterway to go at, you will get some idea of your requirements boat/living space wise & as & when /if you decide to move on the boat you have to sell will be of interest to a wider buyer base than say a boat limited to a small portion of unconnected waterways

[David Mack]

On 17/12/2017 at 22:38, toomanyairmiles said:

I need to be in London only 3 to 6 months a year, for the rest of the time I work from home. What I had in mind was moving about a fair bit through the canal network

If you are only going to be in London for 3-6 months a year then you can't be a continuous cruiser. You will need a proper (paid for) mooring for at least the other 6-9 months.

[Giant]

Just to be clear on the actual limitations around London - at 2.75m your air draft would be about the same as ours. You would not be able to get up the Lea beyond the A104 bridge in Hackney, and that cuts off one of the main routes for London cruising. I don't know about the canals as we're too wide for those anyway, but a glance at Canalplan suggests you'd not even get to Uxbridge on the Grand Union - you'd be stuck at the bridge by Packet Boat marina.

Plenty of leisure cruising to be had for a big boat on the Thames, the Medway and around the estuary, but with a boat like that you can't do the "continuous cruising" thing round here.