Trojan Battery Terminal Selection

[Keajre]

16 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No, absolutely not that sort of connector! Give me a minute and I’ll find a link.

This sort of thing: https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/batterypower-cable-terminals-connectors2.html

 

 

The batteries come with nuts and washers to secure these tubular ring crimps.

Got it, so the lugs go directly onto the threaded studs. That makes it a better design than the standard automobile stud type then, great.  Does that mean the hole in the lug needs to be 8 mm internal diameter? The Trojan advertise the ELPT as 5/16 “

Edited November 29, 2017 by Keajre

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Keajre said:

Got it, so the lugs go directly onto the threaded studs. That makes it a better design than the standard automobile stud type then, great.  Does that mean the hole in the lug needs to be 8 mm internal diameter? The Trojan advertise the ELPT as 5/16 “

Yes, 8mm. You get the tubular crimps in all the combinations of hole size and conductor area. You must get a crimp that exactly matches the conductor area. Should end up looking something like this:

[MtB]

On 29/11/2017 at 15:18, Robbo said:

Soldering isn't best practise.  Crimping is in cases like this.    If the cable heats up the solder softens and then the cable can come away, thats why crimping us used.

 

I'm inclined to disagree. I think crimping is 'best practice' because soldering requires manual skill and dexterity along with good judgement. Crimping just requires the right tool and the right fittings for consistent results with no skill, so results are more predictable and therefore imminently preferable. 

[Keajre]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Yes, 8mm. You get the tubular crimps in all the combinations of hole size and conductor area. You must get a crimp that exactly matches the conductor area. Should end up looking something like this:

Thanks for sharing,excellent.  Just looking at the negative terminal with presumably one cable going to the negative of your inverter and one going to another battery, so you have two cables leaving that single stud.  The connectors look different? The nut is somehow encased?

[nicknorman]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm inclined to disagree. I think crimping is 'best practice' because soldering requires manual skill and dexterity along with good judgement. Crimping just requires the right tool and the right fittings for consistent results with no skill, so results are more predictable and therefore imminently preferable. 

Connectors on aeroplanes are nearly always crimped. This is because they are often safety critical, and soldered connections tend to fracture under prolonged vibration. As you sugggest I think properly soldering a 70mm2 insulated cable without trashing the insulation would be pretty difficult.

1 minute ago, Keajre said:

Thanks for sharing,excellent.  Just looking at the negative terminal with presumably one cable going to the negative of your inverter and one going to another battery, so you have two cables leaving that single stud.  The connectors look different? The nut is somehow encased?

No it’s just a trick of the light. Yes that is the negative takeoff. You might notice that the interconnect I made have heatshink on them. The connector the boat builder made up just has some insulating tape wrapped round. Well I suppose that’s adequate but heatshrink is so much neater!

[MtB]

On 29/11/2017 at 22:14, nicknorman said:

Connectors on aeroplanes are nearly always crimped. This is because they are often safety critical, and soldered connections tend to fracture under prolonged vibration. As you sugggest I think properly soldering a 70mm2 insulated cable without trashing the insulation would be pretty difficult.

 

When I used to build radars for Navy ships at Decca Radar all the cable terminations were soldered. 

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

When I used to build radars for Navy ships at Decca Radar all the cable terminations were soldered. 

That’s a ship! Aircraft have vibration in a different league, bearing in mind the energy in vibration is proportional to the frequency. And of course if we are talking about RF then yes it would need to be soldered

[MtB]

On 29/11/2017 at 22:27, nicknorman said:

That’s a ship

 

Remind me of the title of this forum!!

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Remind me of the title of this forum!!

Really? Oh yes, I’m in the wrong forum!

[MtB]

On 29/11/2017 at 22:48, nicknorman said:

Really? Oh yes, I’m in the wrong forum!

 

You crack me up sometimes! 

A bit like cereal tiller

[Eeyore]

Personaly I would go with type 4 terminals. No limitatations to number of cables attached (yes, the recommended number is three according to one code of practice; and we all abide by those); longer bolts can be used. The tightening torque is not transfered to the battery post, so no broken studs caused by heavy handed tightening.

[bizzard]

I've never known soldered cable joints to ever fail on old cars and some of them could vibrate big time, my 1936 Fraud Y Model did.  I have however come across a few failed crimp joints on more modern cars, never Japanese cars though  their wiring is normally impecable. French and German cars they were, both old enemies of ours, their own home market cars wiring seems to be largely trouble free of dodgy  joints, strange that.   Also a few so called failed professional  crimp joints on boats too, again never come across any failed soldered joints on boats including my own which are mostly all soldered and they have to stand having the daylights vibrated out of them by the solid mounted air cooled Lister ST2 which makes my teeth rattle and blurr's my vision at certain revs also.  There's soldering and theirs soldering. Incidentally no one ever mentions cleaning conductor ends to bright shiny copper before soldering or crimping, I scrape them with a penknife blade to bright copper first as they are always slightly dull even when new. I believe they're coated with something which assists combining them with the insulation during manufacture.  An old very clever  TV and wireless repairer and builder gave me the tip about 50 years ago. A plumber would never solder copper tube and joints without cleaning the ends first with wire wool to bright copper.  Excess flux can be cleaned off by scrubbing with warm soapy water.

I've just been informed that the wires inside vibrators are soldered.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by bizzard

[Robbo]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm inclined to disagree. I think crimping is 'best practice' because soldering requires manual skill and dexterity along with good judgement. Crimping just requires the right tool and the right fittings for consistent results with no skill, so results are more predictable and therefore imminently preferable. 

It’s not the skill of the person it’s the method used. Best practise is using the best method for that type of connection in the situation it’s used in.

[Keajre]

8 hours ago, bizzard said:

I've never known soldered cable joints to ever fail on old cars and some of them could vibrate big time, my 1936 Fraud Y Model did.  I have however come across a few failed crimp joints on more modern cars, never Japanese cars though  their wiring is normally impecable. French and German cars they were, both old enemies of ours, their own home market cars wiring seems to be largely trouble free of dodgy  joints, strange that.   Also a few so called failed professional  crimp joints on boats too, again never come across any failed soldered joints on boats including my own which are mostly all soldered and they have to stand having the daylights vibrated out of them by the solid mounted air cooled Lister ST2 which makes my teeth rattle and blurr's my vision at certain revs also.  There's soldering and theirs soldering. Incidentally no one ever mentions cleaning conductor ends to bright shiny copper before soldering or crimping, I scrape them with a penknife blade to bright copper first as they are always slightly dull even when new. I believe they're coated with something which assists combining them with the insulation during manufacture.  An old very clever  TV and wireless repairer and builder gave me the tip about 50 years ago. A plumber would never solder copper tube and joints without cleaning the ends first with wire wool to bright copper.  Excess flux can be cleaned off by scrubbing with warm soapy water.

I've just been informed that the wires inside vibrators are soldered.

 

Thanks for the tips and your input.  Had quite intense debates with people on the moorings and here about this now, either that connection should be soldered or not.  I watched one YouTube channel of the guy who did clean the end of the copper but only by virtue of cutting it so I’ll take your advice and use wire wool.  You say clean the flux with warm soapy water. Don’t just turn the flux off with the torch?

8 hours ago, Eeyore said:

Personaly I would go with type 4 terminals. No limitatations to number of cables attached (yes, the recommended number is three according to one code of practice; and we all abide by those); longer bolts can be used. The tightening torque is not transfered to the battery post, so no broken studs caused by heavy handed tightening.

Ah Chanel No4. So  how do you secure the cables with a number 4? Was going to procure through Tanya.co.uk, they only sell No.1. Might be able to req no.4

[Keajre]

Oic. With a bolt through the side, I see yr point, bit better potentially 

[Keajre]

18 hours ago, Robbo said:

I use my own Hydraulic crimper, about £25-40 on ebay..   I tend to use a size below on the crimp, but the correct size lugs.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.XHydraulic+crimper.TRS0&_nkw=Hydraulic+crimper&_sacat=0

 

I would also recommend using adhesive lined heatshrink as well to finish off. http://www.iem-services.co.uk/search.asp?types=yes&type=HEATSHRINK+SLEEVING+>+3-1+Adhesive+Lined

Which heat shrink wrap would be appropriate for 70mm2 cable? Largest is 40mm on the iem website. 

[bizzard]

25 minutes ago, Keajre said:

Thanks for the tips and your input.  Had quite intense debates with people on the moorings and here about this now, either that connection should be soldered or not.  I watched one YouTube channel of the guy who did clean the end of the copper but only by virtue of cutting it so I’ll take your advice and use wire wool.  You say clean the flux with warm soapy water. Don’t just turn the flux off with the torch?

Ah Chanel No4. So  how do you secure the cables with a number 4? Was going to procure through Tanya.co.uk, they only sell No.1. Might be able to req no.4

Its best to back scrape with a pen or craft knife blade along the short part where the terminal is to be soldered on, turning it slowly whilst gently scraping.  Multicore solder has the flux incorporated in it. If you use a separate flux don't slosh it about, just paint it on neatly where the joint is to be made only.  Solder will run towards flux and heat, keep both concentrated.  Clean inside the terminals too with a curl of fine grit paper or wire wool before soldering. Lack of proper cleaning of the mating parts is the main reason some folk fail to make good solder joints. Once cleaned don't touch them with oily fingers.

Edited November 30, 2017 by bizzard

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Keajre said:

Which heat shrink wrap would be appropriate for 70mm2 cable? Largest is 40mm on the iem website. 

Depends which cable you get. The 70mm^2 is the conductor area. Divide by pi and square root for the radius, double for diameter which gives around 10mm diameter. Then add something for the insulation x 2. Hopefully the seller will quote the cable diameter but probably around 15mm so get 20mm heatshrink. Get the stuff that has adhesive on the inside.

[Robbo]

1 hour ago, Keajre said:

Which heat shrink wrap would be appropriate for 70mm2 cable? Largest is 40mm on the iem website. 

The heatshrink mm size is the diameter not the mm2.   It will have a range of what it will shrink down to and from.   The diameter size of the cable is on that site as well so you just need one in the range for the cable you are getting.

[Keajre]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Depends which cable you get. The 70mm^2 is the conductor area. Divide by pi and square root for the radius, double for diameter which gives around 10mm diameter. Then add something for the insulation x 2. Hopefully the seller will quote the cable diameter but probably around 15mm so get 20mm heatshrink. Get the stuff that has adhesive on the inside.

Thanks, very helpful