New battery Charger

[WotEver]

9 minutes ago, embis said:

Please lets not mix this up with my posting in a previous thread, lets assume I have a new bank of batteries and they have not been maltreated.

In which case we will need a lot more information than so far disclosed, as Alan explains above. 

[Sea Dog]

The difference lies, I'd offer, in recharging after discharging when cruising and in maintaining charge whilst on shore supply.  With the former after a night moored up, you might see over 100a initially, falling pretty quickly at first and then gradually as the state of charge increases - you need a high current source for this. With the latter, the constant connection means you'll rarely see anything over a very few amps going to maintain charge in the battery as long as the charger is adequate for your 12V dc load, which a well chosen smaller charger will comfortably provide. Even my 5a Ctek was enough to maintain my bank in 'float' all last week (noting that I relieved it of the load from the fridge). I wouldn't recommend that (must needs) but it does tell a story imho.

[Tony Brooks]

My thoughts on this..

Yes a larger output charger will reduce the time spent in bulk so is probably best for use with a generator.

I agree that as long as the electrical load does not exceed the charger capacity for long periods a smaller charger is, in theory, adequate for use with a shoreline and may be advantageous in treating the batteries gently BUT and its a big BUT it seems most smart chargers go into float far too early  and the smaller the charger output the worse this will be so the charger needs sizing to minimise this.

I do not believe that with multi-stage chargers it is safe to assume that the batteries are fully charged when it goes into float so I am somewhat sceptical with Sea Dog's post but will say my 6amp Halford charger kept my bank fully charged while moored in Liverpool and when turned off and on again it only stayed in bulk/absorption for a few minutes (only a two stage charger as far as I can tell). It was however supplemented by 60W of solar.

If someone just told me that I need a charger of a given size without doing a lot of probing to ascertain use and did not explain why they recommended that size I would be suspicious about their motives. I do not think a straight percentage of battery bank size can be anything other than a very rough guide.

 

My thoughts on the quote the OP pit in the first post - marketing bullshine that needs much further research. The post about adjustable outputs is far more useful.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[Richard10002]

My first thoughts on this were, "and the same again for fitting", i.e. £400 to swap out a charger???

It obviously depends on the space available and the size of the existing cables from charger to battery, but the job possibly requires removing the old charger, screwing in the new charger, connecting the cables. As a DIY job, that would take me a couple of hours. Even with a new location and new cables I couldn't see £400 of labour??

So I would be asking what is the "fitter" doing for £400, what is his hourly rate, and how long is he estimating to do the job?? Straight swap? New cables? New location and cables?

My second thoughts were that: I had a 25A charger when I bought the boat, and my alternator gives out about 40A max, so I fitted a Sterling Pro Combi S 2500W inverter charger which charges at 80A bulk, (450Ah bank nominal). Much faster to get the batteries up to the point where they are only drawing 25A, and similar for the rest of the charging period.

I also like the look of the Sterling including its numerous settings and a Custom setting, although Victron is perceived to be better quality. So, if i had a 20A charger, I'd be looking to get a "bigger" one, if only for speed.

I would also fit something like a NASA BM1 or BM2 battery monitor so I could see how many Amps were being drawn when charging, (amongst other things). 

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

So, if i had a 20A charger, I'd be looking to get a "bigger" one, if only for speed.

 

Yeah, and I also discounted 20a as being sub-optimal, but...

For many of us narrowboaters, speed of recharging is only an issue when you're recharging discharged batteries with the engine on, whether static or short day cruising, where it's important to get back  to fully charged before stopping. Once on a reliable shore supply, a. Time is no longer of the essence, as your charger remains on until after your batteries are fully charged; b. As long as your charger is more than sufficient to service your DC domestic load, your batteries aren't being depleted.

In my own case, whilst my jury rig of a Ctek 5 amp charger is only enough to cope with my domestic load without the fridge, even that will maintain a fully charged 400ah plus domestic bank (as a temporary measure). The 100amp I had from my Combi was huge overkill in a boat when on a reliable shore supply. If the supply is a generator or an intermittent or unreliable  supply source however, you will again have to factor in the recharging of depleted batteries and, as when cruising, it becomes essential to restore a full charge as quickly as possible before you lose the source. In this case therefore, size (in terms of available amps) becomes hugely more important. That's not the case for me or, I suspect, the OP.

(I'm not saying there are no factors other than speed involved in selecting the right charger)

[WotEver]

6 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

I'm not saying there are no factors other than speed involved in selecting the right charger

As I said in post #2, the big, no HUGE, advantage of the Sterling over many other chargers is the Custom setting. Whether or not that will benefit OP depends on...

• His cruising/charging regime
• What type of batteries he has 
• How much he cares about monitoring/caring for the batteries 

A larger charger would be beneficial regardless of all of the above points. Whether or not a larger charger is ‘necessary’ is a different matter.

Tony

[MtB]

The Sterling Pro Charge Ultra is about the best charger money can buy if only because I just don’t know of any others that allow you to set your equalising voltage

But can we start at the beginning? What is the problem you are trying to solve by spending £800 on a new charger?

Edited October 30, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

But can we start at the beginning?

It’s a very good place to start...

Seriously, you, Alan and myself have all asked for some detail. OP has only replied to the one post that told him he didn’t need to change anything. Make of that what you will. 

[smileypete]

Dunno about the OPs circumstances but £400 can buy a reasonable solar setup.

I'd be wary of leaving a batt bank unattended on a hi power charger, solar gives a bit more flexibility and works when the shoreline trips out (in spring/summer/autumn at least!)

[Alan de Enfield]

57 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It’s a very good place to start...

Seriously, you, Alan and myself have all asked for some detail. OP has only replied to the one post that told him he didn’t need to change anything. Make of that what you will. 

Only hears what he wants to hear?

[Sea Dog]

14 hours ago, WotEver said:

As I said in post #2, the big, no HUGE, advantage of the Sterling over many other chargers is the Custom setting. Whether or not that will benefit OP depends on...

Well, yes, but.. the OP is wondering whether 400 quid to buy  a new charger and the same again to fit it is OK or not, so the availability of custom settings is unlikely to mean much.

How much benefit is 'custom' anyway, other than for a minority of tweakers?  For most, surely select the right setting for your battery and forget is the modus operandi?  The relatively cheap Victron I've just bought will automatically do (V) 14.4 or 14.7 absorption,depending on the whether normal or high mode is selected, 13.8 float and 13.2  storage modes, or 14.2 absorption and 13.5 float/storage for Li-ion. You can argue with Victron's choices if you like, but they'll do for my set up and, I'd suggest, the majority. 

[MtB]

On 30/10/2017 at 09:13, Sea Dog said:

The relatively cheap Victron I've just bought will automatically do (V) 14.4 or 14.7 absorption,depending on the whether normal or high mode is selected, 13.8 float and 13.2  storage modes, or 14.2 absorption and 13.5 float/storage for Li-ion. You can argue with Victron's choices if you like, but they'll do for my set up and, I'd suggest, the majority. 

 

So how do you equalise, when capacity begins to get a bit low?

[WotEver]

42 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Well, yes, but.. the OP is wondering whether 400 quid to buy  a new charger and the same again to fit it is OK or not, so the availability of custom settings is unlikely to mean much.

How much benefit is 'custom' anyway, other than for a minority of tweakers?  For most, surely select the right setting for your battery and forget is the modus operandi?  The relatively cheap Victron I've just bought will automatically do (V) 14.4 or 14.7 absorption,depending on the whether normal or high mode is selected, 13.8 float and 13.2  storage modes, or 14.2 absorption and 13.5 float/storage for Li-ion. You can argue with Victron's choices if you like, but they'll do for my set up and, I'd suggest, the majority. 

I’m guessing you’re on shore line and not charging from a genny. If you ARE charging from a genny then those Victron settings are far from optimal. Further, the Victron is, I believe, a fair bit more expensive than the Sterling, is it not?

Besides, selectively quoting the first part of my post and omitting the more relevant part makes it pointless.

£400 for fitting a charger is a joke, but I wasn’t addressing that part of the question. 

Plus as Mike asks, how do you equalise?

Edited October 30, 2017 by WotEver

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Plus as Mike asks, how do you equalise?

No need - Just buy new batteries

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No need - Just buy new batteries

 

Not very practical really.

A battery used hard may well need equalising every six or eight weeks.

[Sea Dog]

52 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So how do you equalise, when capacity begins to get a bit low?

You press the "Recondition" button, as long as you have batteries which will benefit - which I know you do. (Not trying be smart there - I just didn't go into all the detail in that post)

22 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I’m guessing you’re on shore line and not charging from a genny. If you ARE charging from a genny then those Victron settings are far from optimal. Further, the Victron is, I believe, a fair bit more expensive than the Sterling, is it not?

Besides, selectively quoting the first part of my post and omitting the more relevant part makes it pointless.

£400 for fitting a charger is a joke, but I wasn’t addressing that part of the question. 

Plus as Mike asks, how do you equalise?

Yeah, my set up is for a reliable shore supply, but I raise the points because I think that's what the OP was asking about.  I did say that the charger requirement when using a Generator supply was a different kettle of fish in my previous post (which you selectively quoted from :D). We're talking mains chargers here unless I've got the wrong end of the stick (not unknown).

I'm not trying to sell Victron stuff, but the 30a blue smart I bought was 178 quid because (and here's the funny bit when were talking about the necessity of custom settings) it's settings are adjustable over Bluetooth! The blue power range is similar but cheaper w/o Bluetooth, but I believe that's on its way out. Dunno how much the Sterling's are because I've been put off by all the threads here starting with "Help! My Sterling..."

I know you weren't addressing the fitting costs - I was using that as part of an illustration of the likely level of knowledge of the OP if he wasn't sure whether 400 quid for a charger and the same to fit it was ok. There are perfectly fair priced chargers in that range, but they're over the top for maintaining the average boat domestic bank whilst on a decent shore supply, I think we'd agree.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't criticising your information, I was merely trying to suggest that the majority might be better off with the right 'fit and forget' kit than stuff with customisable settings. In case you thought I was having a pop rather than adding to the debate, I wasn't: your contributions, particularly on electrics, are always ones I regard highly.

[WotEver]

30 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not very practical really.

A battery used hard may well need equalising every six or eight weeks.

You’d become very good friends with your battery supplier and might even get free coffee. 

[embis]

Thanks to all who have contributed, as usual, much very helpful information and plenty of food for thought.

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, embis said:

Thanks to all who have contributed, as usual, much very helpful information and plenty of food for thought.

In a nutshell, if your boat spends 90% of its time on shore power and you don’t use a genny when out and about then almost any old charger will do. 

[smileypete]

Some of the Tracer solar controllers can do EQ voltage with a USB or wireless adapter, and cost as little as £25.

For EQ off a gennie another option is a cheap bench supply.

However my recommendation for 95% of boaters would be to cross that bridge only if and when you come to it, having bought reasonably decent leisure batts.

Edited October 30, 2017 by smileypete

[alan_fincher]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

In a nutshell, if your boat spends 90% of its time on shore power and you don’t use a genny when out and about then almost any old charger will do. 

That's what I thought, but my experiences as recorded in my own current thread on chargers are making me wonder if it is actually true(!)

[MtB]

4 hours ago, embis said:

Thanks to all who have contributed, as usual, much very helpful information and plenty of food for thought.

 

You're not planning on answering any of the quastions raised then?

[embis]

Thank you, I have all the information I need for now, I will come back if I need to so please dont worry!

[frahkn]

14 minutes ago, embis said:

Thank you, I have all the information I need for now, I will come back if I need to so please dont worry!

I think forum etiquette is to assist others as they try to assist you. Often if you supply the answers to questions this allows others, perhaps with issues only tangentially similar to yours, to a better understanding of their problem. This has assisted me in the past.

[MtB]

On 31/10/2017 at 12:22, embis said:

Thank you, I have all the information I need for now, I will come back if I need to so please dont worry!

 

It would be good manners to at least explain what the problem is you are trying to solve.

If you won't do this even though asked, the people on the forum are less likely to feel inclined assist you so much with any future questions or problems.