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Anyone seen this before re continuous crusing


colin1325

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DISTANCE NOT IMPORTANT IN CONTINUOUS CRUISING: THE COURT JUDGEMENT CRT TRIED TO HIDE

A recent judgement in a Section 8 case confirms that it would be unlawful for Canal & River Trust (CRT) to set a minimum distance that continuous cruisers must travel to comply with the law.

The judgement in the case of CRT v Mayers states that repeated journeys between the same two places would be “bona fide navigation” if the boater had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal. HHJ Halbert also stated that any requirement by CRT to use a substantial part of the canal network was not justified by Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995 because the requirement to use the boat bona fide for navigation is “temporal not geographical”.

In addition, Judge Halbert determined that a boat with a permanent mooring is not required ever to use its mooring. Indeed, during the course of argument CRT conceded that if Mr Mayers acquired a home mooring, he would be left undisturbed even if he did not use the mooring, provided that he did not exceed the limit of 14 days in one place.

The judgement was handed down in November 2013 but CRT has not published it, unlike other judgements in Section 8 cases. Yet despite knowing about this judgement for a year, CRT is currently attempting to set a minimum distance that continuous cruisers must travel in order to comply with the law.

CRT held two meetings with boating user groups on 22nd September and 3rd November 2014 in which it tried to persuade the groups to agree a minimum distance that boaters without home moorings must travel every three months and over their licence year to avoid enforcement action. CRT did not disclose this judgement at either meeting.

In 2011, BW re-wrote the Mooring Guidance for Continuous Cruisers to remove the words “the law requires a genuine progressive journey (a cruise) around the network or a significant part of it” as a result of the judgement in British Waterways (BW) v Davies. The guidance was renamed Guidance for Boaters Without a Home Mooring.

In 2003, British Waterways tried to introduce the Draft Moorings Code or Lock Miles Rules, which would have required continuous cruisers to travel at least 120 different lock-miles every three months without using the same stretch twice. This draconian proposal was dropped by British Waterways following the threat of legal action by a boating user group and in 2004 the Mooring Guidance for Continuous Cruisers was published instead.

In spite of this judgement CRT started court action in early 2014 against a boat dweller who did not use his home mooring. It has now dropped the Section 8 claim against liveaboard Tony Dunkley.

The relevant paragraphs of the CRT v Mayers judgement are reproduced below.

7.22.3
I consider the requirement imposed by CRT that a substantial part of the network is used cannot be justified by relying solely on section 17(3). That section requires “bona fide navigation throughout the period of the licence” not “bona fide navigation throughout the canal network”. The requirement is temporal not geographical. In my view it does NOT follow from:

“Such journey or cruise must take place “throughout the period of the licence”

that it

“therefore requires progression round the network or at least a significant part of it”

7.22.4
If a person who lived permanently on his or her boat had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal between two points sufficiently far apart to be regarded as different places, it would in my view be purposeful movement by water from one place to another and hence “bona fide navigation”. In the course of argument I used the example of someone who lived on his boat but was also using the vessel commercially to move coal from a mine to an iron foundry only a few miles away and then returning empty for another load.

7.22.5
To take an extreme example, in its heyday, the Mersey Ferry operated continuously to and fro over the same stretch of water which is less than a mile wide. No one would ever have accepted the suggestion that the ferry boats were not bona fide used  for navigation throughout the period of their operations.

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5 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Everybody's seen it by now. It has limited application, but may be useful for those who set out to clog up desirable locations, annoy all the other boaters who are out cruising, waste CRT's time and money and spend some time in court. 

I agree. Its obvious to me that ccing is often 20 miles a day never mind 3 months but we have been here before time and time again havnt we.

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8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I agree. Its obvious to me that ccing is often 20 miles a day 

 

Not been on the K&A yet then I see! 

The slow, heavy and frequent locks mean a single hander can cruise for a day and barely get 5 miles. 

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not been on the K&A yet then I see! 

The slow, heavy and frequent locks mean a single hander can cruise for a day and barely get 5 miles. 

Coming back next year to give you abuse :D I moored on there in the past as you know!! Yeas yes ok then I know its hard single handing but you know exactly what I mean :P

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53 minutes ago, colin1325 said:
58 minutes ago, colin1325 said:

 

.............. repeated journeys between the same two places would be “bona fide navigation” if the boater had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal. ........... No one would ever have accepted the suggestion that the ferry boats were not bona fide used  for navigation throughout the period of their operations.............

This is old news which has been picked over many times. Generally CCers don't offer ferry services.

 

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1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Coming back next year to give you abuse :D I moored on there in the past as you know!! Yeas yes ok then I know its hard single handing but you know exactly what I mean :P

 

Yes I know really. When single handling on the Oxford with those toytown locks I can do 45 miles in a day, EASY. :giggles:

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14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I agree. Its obvious to me that ccing is often 20 miles a day never mind 3 months but we have been here before time and time again havnt we.

Up here in the norrrf , Tim cruising from one pub to the next is very acceptable. 20 miles a day you should be here by Christmas I'll get the fish 'n chips ready for Christmas dinner

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3 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Up here in the norrrf , Tim cruising from one pub to the next is very acceptable. 20 miles a day you should be here by Christmas I'll get the fish 'n chips ready for Christmas dinner

Ahhhh fish and chips.......................PROPER fish and chips.................how I am looking forward to it. They are simply unobtainable anywhere south of Sheffield and as for the ones I had last night :(

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4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Ahhhh fish and chips.......................PROPER fish and chips.................how I am looking forward to it. They are simply unobtainable anywhere south of Sheffield and as for the ones I had last night :(

If you get as far as Ripon I'll pick you up and take you to Whitby - you may think you've died and gone to heaven.

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7 minutes ago, Midnight said:

If you get as far as Ripon I'll pick you up and take you to Whitby - you may think you've died and gone to heaven.

A pal of mine was there last week he had fish and chips 3 times and he was only there 2 days :lol: I havnt been there for nearly thirty years :(

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36 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not been on the K&A yet then I see! 

The slow, heavy and frequent locks mean a single hander can cruise for a day and barely get 5 miles. 

That is a bit of an exaggeration Mike.  As you know, I used to regularly travel the K&A single handed from Reading to Bath and I never achieved less than 5 miles in a day, apart from the section from Devizes Wharf and Foxhangers which is only about two and a half miles. I will, however, concede that some days I only achieved something like seven miles, and  Of course it depends on what you percieve as a "day". Checking my log, most of my days were something between 5 and 7 hours cruising.

Edited by David Schweizer
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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Ahhhh fish and chips.......................PROPER fish and chips.................how I am looking forward to it. They are simply unobtainable anywhere south of Sheffield and as for the ones I had last night :(

 

1 hour ago, Midnight said:

If you get as far as Ripon I'll pick you up and take you to Whitby - you may think you've died and gone to heaven.

 

Having had fish and chips in both Whitby and at the BCLM many times, I'd say the BCLM fish and chips shop product is superior in every way. 

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3 hours ago, Midnight said:

Not  a ferry service as such, but could a CC moor at the same place somewhere each night, and use the boat during the day to go to work somewhere a short distance away. I don't know if it happens, but it sounds bona-fide to me.

 

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During the first five or six years of owning Helvetia, we did not have a permanent mooring and during the summer managed to leave the boat on the towpath and return every 14 days to move it a considerabe distance before mooring again. In the winter we kept the boat on the K&A, but still moved every 14 days, using the old BW criteria of moving to the next Parish every forteen days, and not returning for four weeks. When we got fed up with returning to the K&A every year, and before finding a permanent mooring that we coulld afford, we used a number Winter moorings and continued to cruise during the summer months. but we never got one notice suggesting that we had, or were about to, overstay, and we were aware that the presence of our bpat was being recorded.

Comments from some people posting above  suggest that they either have particularly enthusiastic Enforcement Officers, or are deluding themselves that they are compling when pehaps they are not.

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34 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Ive been at this mooring spot for nearly two days now but its blowin a bloomin hooley so I aint goin anywhere :( whats the wevver tomoz like?

Puff!

Having handed back Viscount this morning we drove back to Lincoln boarded Naughty-Cal and had a very interesting but damage free trip to Lincoln.

Amazing how good the wind is at judging when you are about to moor up and then it suddenly blows you completely sideways away from where you aimed. And in front of hundreds of Saturday afternoon shoppers!

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46 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Ive been at this mooring spot for nearly two days now but its blowin a bloomin hooley so I aint goin anywhere :( whats the wevver tomoz like?

The wind is starting to decrease now. Expecting heavy rain soon.

Tomorrow promises to be a better day with sunshine!

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46 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

During the first five or six years of owning Helvetia, we did not have a permanent mooring and during the summer managed to leave the boat on the towpath and return every 14 days to move it a considerabe distance before mooring again. In the winter we kept the boat on the K&A, but still moved every 14 days, using the old BW criteria of moving to the next Parish every forteen days, and not returning for four weeks. When we got fed up with returning to the K&A every year, and before finding a permanent mooring that we coulld afford, we used a number Winter moorings and continued to cruise during the summer months. but we never got one notice suggesting that we had, or were about to, overstay, and we were aware that the presence of our bpat was being recorded.

Comments from some people posting above  suggest that they either have particularly enthusiastic Enforcement Officers, or are deluding themselves that they are compling when pehaps they are not.

The only time I have received a e.mail saying I had overstayed was when I was on a winter mooring I had paid for.

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18 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

The wind is starting to decrease now. Expecting heavy rain soon.

Tomorrow promises to be a better day with sunshine!

I ope so I need to get somewhere with a decent pub I am afraid the two at my present location have become blooming dreadful and crashed and burned :(

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