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Modern "old" engines


smiler

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10 minutes ago, dmr said:

The BD3 was a beta marinisation of an old 3 pot Ford. Beta discontinued it 'cus it did not meet new emissions regs. They replaced it with JD3, a marinisation of a John Deere 3 pot (nicer looking than the BD3 but not quite as slow revving). JD3 now also discontinued due to even newer emissions regs.

Tony does keep pointing out that its difficult to get a DI to rev slowly without making a bit of smoke.

...............Dave

Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't appreciated that there were two different base engines; I am only (vaguely) familiar with the John Deere base.

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14 minutes ago, dmr said:

The BD3 was a beta marinisation of an old 3 pot Ford. Beta discontinued it 'cus it did not meet new emissions regs. They replaced it with JD3, a marinisation of a John Deere 3 pot (nicer looking than the BD3 but not quite as slow revving). JD3 now also discontinued due to even newer emissions regs.

Tony does keep pointing out that its difficult to get a DI to rev slowly without making a bit of smoke.

...............Dave

I was (am) under the impression that the John Deere engines are just re-badged Yanmar

We had several JD mowers & tractors on the golf-course with 3 and 4 cylinder engines and the local JD dealer told me that they were all Yanmar engined, in fact the last big fairway mower (12 foot cut) was a JD with a Yanmar 4-cylinder, not even badged as a JD

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I was (am) under the impression that the John Deere engines are just re-badged Yanmar

I believe (which means I'm probably wrong) that the 3 cylinder for the Beta JD3 was an old John Deere design, which is why it was chosen for the job. One of the last slow revving diesels

Richard

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So you've never met one of those Rigas Dizelas engines than? Simon Wain has one in OBERON and it sounds like a JP2 but is the size of a shoebox.

It's not a modern engine though, is it?

When could you last possibly have bought a new one?

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If I remember correctly, that is all in compliance with the rules if the boat is a reproduction / copy of an 'elderly' boat and the boat design and engine are of comparable vintage.

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Exclusions
4.—(1) The design and construction requirements set out in Part A of Schedule 1 do not apply to the following watercraft—

 ........................................

(e) original historical watercraft and individual replicas thereof designed before 1950 built predominantly with the original materials and labelled as such by the manufacturer;

 

(2) The exhaust emission requirements set out in Part B of Schedule 1 do not apply to the following—

(a) ................................

(b) original historical propulsion engines and individual replicas thereof, which are based on a pre-1950 design, not produced in series and fitted on watercraft referred to in paragraph 4(1)(e) or paragraph 4(1)(h) above.

 

But, as you say 'where there is a will, there is a way'

Surely any modern narrowboat is a loose copy of pre 1950 working boat and therefore complies :P

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So you've never met one of those Rigas Dizelas engines than? Simon Wain has one in OBERON and it sounds like a JP2 but is the size of a shoebox.

Peter Thompson used to sell them, but I think he stopped when tighter emissions/noise regulations came in.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I was (am) under the impression that the John Deere engines are just re-badged Yanmar

We had several JD mowers & tractors on the golf-course with 3 and 4 cylinder engines and the local JD dealer told me that they were all Yanmar engined, in fact the last big fairway mower (12 foot cut) was a JD with a Yanmar 4-cylinder, not even badged as a JD

Ive heard this said quite often, but its wrong. Deere do fit some Yanmars in their smaller stuff, like lawnmowers, and so look to have a tight working relationship with Yanmar. The JD3 (Deere 3029DF) is a John Deere engine, fitted in some smaller tractors but mostly sold as a general purpose industrial engine and used lots by companies building gensets. They also do 4 (4045) and 6 (6068) cylinder variants of the same engine, and I think offer ready marinised versions of these biguns.

Inspired numberng system    number of cylinders plus capacity. :D

The Tractor variant is, I think, built in America but the industrial variant as used by Beta is surprisingly built in a Deere factory in France.

We bought the boat with a very sick JD3 and I looked to do a rebuild so had to get very familiar with all this stuff, but ultimately decided to import a new base engine from John Deere.

...........Dave

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3 minutes ago, dmr said:

Deere do fit some Yanmars in their smaller stuff, like lawnmowers

Ok, maybe the JD3isJD built.

Whilst it was a grass cutter, one of the mowers (it wasn't what you would imagine a 'lawn mower' to be) had a Yanmar 3TNV84T. (1500cc, 30.2 kW - 40.5 hp) engine.

Not exactly a 'small' engine.

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2 hours ago, RLWP said:

Where would you buy one of them then?

Richard

 

I dunno, but I'd start by Asking Simon where he bought his. It was a new engine.  

Well I think he said it was new.

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I dunno, but I'd start by Asking Simon where he bought his. It was a new engine.  

This thread refers & suggests you could buy a new one up to about 7 years ago.  

 

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21 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Why has no one mentioned Bukh. 2 cylinder and slow revving. Surprised Tony Brooks has not said it

Current suitable "DV" series Bukh engines seem to list speeds of up to 3,600 RPM.

Unless there are others I'm missing, that is hardly "slow revving" surely?

 

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43 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Why has no one mentioned Bukh. 2 cylinder and slow revving. Surprised Tony Brooks has not said it

I have some doubts about it being complaint with the new requirements. I also think the two cylinder ones may be a bit small for a larger narrowboat. As Alan says the DV 36 has an intermittent rating of 4000 rpm and continuous of 3600 so no way slow revving.

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46 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Why has no one mentioned Bukh. 2 cylinder and slow revving. Surprised Tony Brooks has not said it

The twin cylinder Bukh engines are not slow revving at all - only 960cc and designed to be revved quite hard.  

In the "proper marine engine" category the Sabb twin is a different beast and would fit the bill but AFAIK they went out of production many years ago. 

   

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Quote

 

There was an example of a 'proper' engine close coupled to the rear - that is no formal engine room and almost under the rear deck. That's abaout as near as the OP can get to his requirements, methinks. Anything slow revving is bould to be large and bulky.

Edited by OldGoat
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Thanks all for your replies.

It looks like from your answers it "may" be possible, but sadly regulations have made things very difficult.

I was just wondering if it was still possible to, at least, get the sound/feel of a vintage engine in a modern, compact package - ie low revs/ twin cylinder.

As stated above, Harleys still build a twin cylinder with an original sound/feel and comply with new regs.

I suppose, as stated above, there is probably not enough call for modern diesel boat engines with a vintage "feel"

Suppose I could go with a 4 cylinder and block off 2 injectors? :rolleyes:

Edited by smiler
  • Greenie 1
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5 minutes ago, smiler said:

 

Suppose I could go with a 4 cylinder and block off 2 injectors? :rolleyes:

 

Have a careful think about which two to block off to get the sound you want...

6 minutes ago, smiler said:

It looks like from your answers it "may" be possible, but sadly regulations have made things very difficult.

 

Awkward but not impossible. There are people who care a lot about regulation compliance and people who don't. Are you a person who likes all the paperwork to be exactly correct, or someone with little regard for bureaucracy? 

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11 minutes ago, smiler said:

Thanks all for your replies.

It looks like from your answers it "may" be possible, but sadly regulations have made things very difficult.

I was just wondering if it was still possible to, at least, get the sound/feel of a vintage engine in a modern, compact package - ie low revs/ twin cylinder.

As stated above, Harleys still build a twin cylinder with an original sound/feel and comply with new regs.

I suppose, as stated above, there is probably not enough call for modern diesel boat engines with a vintage "feel"

Suppose I could go with a 4 cylinder and block off 2 injectors? :rolleyes:

Harleys have a similar turn of pace to a narrowboat and similar handling characteristics. 

Ian.

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7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Have a careful think about which two to block off to get the sound you want...

 

Awkward but not impossible. There are people who care a lot about regulation compliance and people who don't. Are you a person who likes all the paperwork to be exactly correct, or someone with little regard for bureaucracy? 

I respect rules/regulations/bureaucracy mostly - but only when I have to. :rolleyes:

I`m not against bending the rules a little, when needed, but deliberately going against the "establishment" can all too often lead to problems further down the line.

eg - I don`t often stick exactly to the posted speed limit on the roads(who does?) but do respect the fact if I get caught, it`s my own daft fault and accept the consequences

I like to have paperwork to be correct - if only to save complications in the future.

 

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