Managed To Avoid A Nasty Accident Today

[ditchcrawler]

8 hours ago, TonyDunkley said:

Thanks, Alan, but it might turn out to be only a very brief and illusory return !

Tony Dunkley - with a space separating christian and surname - is in fact still ''banned'' from posting on, or even viewing, this Forum. The new member who replied to your thread earlier is a completely different TonyDunkley - with no space separating christian name and surname.

You little tinker, pleased to see you back

[Momac]

I have just caught up with this thread . Being a local it caught my attention.

Reminds me a few years ago a novice trainee volunteer  lock keeper at Gunthorpe started to shut the upstream gates on me just as I passed the green light. More annoying than a near miss. I think he just became a little confused.

I am sure the hydraulic  rams that operate the gates would not stop before a boat was damaged - even a  steel boat.

In your case , the incident at Nether lock sounds quite serious .  If the lock keeper in question is too idle to leave his cabin he should be dismissed .

Is this the same C&RT that is thinking of increasing river license fees ? I certainly hope they will, at the same time , be upping their attention to quality .

[TonyDunkley]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

I have just caught up with this thread . Being a local it caught my attention.

Reminds me a few years ago a novice trainee volunteer  lock keeper at Gunthorpe started to shut the upstream gates on me just as I passed the green light. More annoying than a near miss. I think he just became a little confused.

I am sure the hydraulic  rams that operate the gates would not stop before a boat was damaged - even a  steel boat.

In your case , the incident at Nether lock sounds quite serious .  If the lock keeper in question is too idle to leave his cabin he should be dismissed .

Is this the same C&RT that is thinking of increasing river license fees ? I certainly hope they will, at the same time , be upping their attention to quality .

Your assumption is incorrect. 

The hydraulics currently fitted to the lower Trent locks are in fact rather feeble in comparison with the Vickers equipment that was installed when the locks first began to be converted from hand operation and mechanized in the late fifties and early sixties. Not only are the maximum operating pressure relief valves set at lower values than the Vickers systems, and the rams of a smaller diameter, but as the gates swing toward the fully closed position the horizontal angle between the gate and the centre axis of the rams decreases significantly, reducing the operating lever (rotating moment, or 'pushing' force) on both the gates. The old Vickers hydraulics would open the gates against a 6 - 9 inch difference in water levels - the stuff that's fitted nowadays only barely copes with the water levels equalized !

As for sacking the lad who was on duty at the time of this incident - not only would such a course of action be unnecessarily harsh, but it would also be somewhat negative and counter productive. Whoever was taken on and/or trained to replace this young man would NOT have the benefit of first hand experience of an incident such as this - something which you can be sure that he will not ever wish to repeat. Unnerving as the incident would have been for Alan, it will have had the positive effect of making the instigator of it that much more careful to ensure that it never happens again.

 

Nb.  There is no "River Licence" - the Public Right of Navigation [PRN] on all of the C&RT controlled river navigations precludes the need for any such thing. The meaningless piece of paper that C&RT misrepresent and sell to boaters as a 'Rivers only Licence', is in fact simply a certificate of registration. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by TonyDunkley

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TonyDunkley said:

Your assumption is incorrect. 

The hydraulics currently fitted to the lower Trent locks are in fact rather feeble in comparison with the Vickers equipment that was installed when the locks first began to be converted from hand operation and mechanized in the late fifties and early sixties. Not only are the maximum operating pressure relief valves set at lower values than the Vickers systems, and the rams of a smaller diameter, but as the gates swing toward the fully closed position the horizontal angle between the gate and the centre axis of the rams decreases significantly, reducing the operating lever (rotating moment, or 'pushing' force) on both the gates. The old Vickers hydraulics would open the gates against a 6 - 9 inch difference in water levels - the stuff that's fitted nowadays only barely copes with the water levels equalized !

As for sacking the lad who was on duty at the time of this incident - not only would such a course of action be unnecessarily harsh, but it would also be somewhat negative and counter productive. Whoever was taken on and/or trained to replace this young man would NOT have the benefit of first hand experience of an incident such as this - something which you can be sure that he will not ever wish to repeat. Unnerving as the incident would have been for Alan, it will have had the positive effect of making the instigator of it that much more careful to ensure that it never happens again.

 

Nb.  There is no "River Licence" - the Public Right of Navigation [PRN] on all of the C&RT controlled river navigations precludes the need for any such thing. The meaningless piece of paper that C&RT misrepresent and sell to boaters as a 'Rivers only Licence', is in fact simply a certificate of registration. 

Which rather suggests this all a bit of a storm in tea cup.

As I suggested above, there would appear to be any actual serious consequences for a boat getting 'nipped" between the gates? It might appear to be alarming if it looks like your boat might be, but is it a real danger?

Edited October 17, 2017 by MJG

[Old Son]

Whether damage can occur or not, the correct procedure is to check the gates are clear before closing. Surely it is good practice for the lock keeper to patrol the lock during the cycle anyway. Anything could happen and he needs to be immediately available to close the sluices. I agree with Tony's assessment regarding removal of this trainee. He will have learnt a valuable lesson!

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Old Son said:

I agree with Tony's assessment regarding removal of this trainee. He will have learnt a valuable lesson!

Unless he has done it before, in which case it is all the evidence his manager needs to show hevis not up to the job. 

[Col_T]

Just out of curiosity - I've never been on the Trent so have no idea about those locks or how they work - would they not have an 'emergency stop' button? If so, would that stop the lock gates immediately, or would there be a 'stopping distance'?

 

[TonyDunkley]

11 hours ago, MJG said:

Which rather suggests this all a bit of a storm in tea cup.

As I suggested above, there would appear to be any actual serious consequences for a boat getting 'nipped" between the gates? It might appear to be alarming if it looks like your boat might be, but is it a real danger?

The "real danger", as you put it, in a strong, steel built boat getting 'nipped' between the gates would be unlikely to be to the boat itself but would/could well be manifested in the form of psychological damage to those onboard. Gates, and particularly gates of a size such as those on the lower Trent locks, closing onto and trapping a boat must rank among the most terrifying experiences that anyone aboard that pleasure boat could be subjected to, and could for that alone have serious and lasting consequences.

Yet more "real danger", likely to result in structural damage, would/could arise if the trapped boat happened to be one of the many flimsily constructed GRP vessels now frequenting our waterways.

Edited October 18, 2017 by TonyDunkley

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Old Son said:

Whether damage can occur or not, the correct procedure is to check the gates are clear before closing. Surely it is good practice for the lock keeper to patrol the lock during the cycle anyway. Anything could happen and he needs to be immediately available to close the sluices. I agree with Tony's assessment regarding removal of this trainee. He will have learnt a valuable lesson!

As far as I recall Nether lock is the same as just about al the others in that you can't leave the controls and take your finger off the button controlling the gates opening and closing. It is therefore not possible to 'patrol the lock" while the gates are closing or opening. As far as I know the controls in the cabin work similarly. (Assuming he wasn't just using the lockside controls).

 

He should of course have checked before closing the gates that he was clear to do so.

5 minutes ago, Col_T said:

Just out of curiosity - I've never been on the Trent so have no idea about those locks or how they work - would they not have an 'emergency stop' button? If so, would that stop the lock gates immediately, or would there be a 'stopping distance'?

 

There is an emergency stop button which closes the sluices. The gates stop when you take your finger off the button.

Edited October 18, 2017 by MJG

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, TonyDunkley said:

Yet more "real danger", likely to result in structural damage, would/could arise if the trapped boat happened to be one of the many lightly constructed GRP vessels now frequenting our waterways.

Our boat is GRP (a point obviously not noted by MJG)

Both our boats are currently GRP and allow us to do sea-passages.

 

[Old Son]

21 minutes ago, MJG said:

As far as I recall Nether lock is the same as just about al the others in that you can't leave the controls and take your finger off the button controlling the gates opening and closing. It is therefore not possible to 'patrol the lock" while the gates are closing or opening. As far as I know the controls in the cabin work similarly. (Assuming he wasn't just using the lockside controls).

 

He should of course have checked before closing the gates that he was clear to do so.

There is an emergency stop button which closes the sluices. The gates stop when you take your finger off the button.

My statement was the fact that the lock keeper would surely not sit in his hut whilst the lock was being used. If he should patrol the lock whilst the lock is in use then he may as well operate the lock from where he can see what is going on.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Old Son said:

My statement was the fact that the lock keeper would surely not sit in his hut whilst the lock was being used. If he should patrol the lock whilst the lock is in use then he may as well operate the lock from where he can see what is going on.

On most of these locks they can remain at the controls in the cabin because they are elevated and they give the lock keeper operating the lock a good view of what is going on. ISTR Nether lock from memory is similar to Doncaster town lock in that the cabin is low level and I doubt that they can see the boats actually entering or leaving, if they can't then yes I agree they should be using the lockside controls or the locks should have cctv to allow the keeper to see what is going on. I have a vague recollection that Doncaster town lock is so equipped.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Old Son said:

My statement was the fact that the lock keeper would surely not sit in his hut whilst the lock was being used. If he should patrol the lock whilst the lock is in use then he may as well operate the lock from where he can see what is going on.

It is normal practice for he lockie to operate from inside his cabin. 

Most of the Trent locks have the lock keepers cabin set along side the lock, and at such a height that they can see into the lock, picture shows Newark Town Lock (about 1 mile upstream of Nether Lock)

Unfortunately Nether lock is set a way back from the edge of the lock and is just a low built 'shed'. and a huge 'blind-spot' if the boat is on the 'shed' side of the lock (which we were)

Nether Lock - Full. When empty water is 12 feet+ lower.

 

[TonyDunkley]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Our boat is GRP (a point obviously not noted by MJG)

Both our boats are currently GRP and allow us to do sea-passages.

 

Apart from the possibility of some modifications to the rails forard of the wheelhouse, I would expect a substantially built craft such as that to survive a squeeze with the sort of force the relatively feeble hydraulics now fitted to the Trent locks can exert, Alan. However, it would be a very different story should the same treatment be applied to something like a lightly constructed, GRP canal/river cruiser.

[bizzard]

A Dustman would be safe and ideal for that job. They never close gates, in fact you'd have to phone up the council to get em closed.

[TonyDunkley]

37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is normal practice for he lockie to operate from inside his cabin. 

Most of the Trent locks have the lock keepers cabin set along side the lock, and at such a height that they can see into the lock, picture shows Newark Town Lock (about 1 mile upstream of Nether Lock)

Unfortunately Nether lock is set a way back from the edge of the lock and is just a low built 'shed'. and a huge 'blind-spot' if the boat is on the 'shed' side of the lock (which we were)

Nether Lock - Full. When empty water is 12 feet+ lower.

 

Up until sometime in, from memory, the mid 1980's, there was a two storey (standby generator and all hydraulic pumps in the downstairs) control tower at Nether identical to the one still at Town Lock. It stood on the other side of the lock, directly opposite the garden shed job that's there now, and was quite a bit closer to the edge of the lockside. When standing in the tower there was a clear view of anything passing through the bottom gates. Having made the somewhat strange decision to dispense with the original control tower and substituting the shed, I'm fairly sure that BW installed a biggish convex mirror on a post by the top gates making it possible to see between the bottom gates and down into the chamber from it - is it still there ?

Edited October 18, 2017 by TonyDunkley

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, TonyDunkley said:

BW installed a biggish convex mirror on a post by the top gates so that it was still possible to see between the bottom gates and down into the chamber from it - is it still there ?

Not saying it is not there, but, if I is I have never noticed it.

[john6767]

Nether lock this summer

 

[Dave_P]

On 16/10/2017 at 17:16, WotEver said:

Reed (Mr Fantastic) Richards was  

The top half of Tigger was too.

14 hours ago, MJG said:

Which rather suggests this all a bit of a storm in tea cup.

As I suggested above, there would appear to be any actual serious consequences for a boat getting 'nipped" between the gates? It might appear to be alarming if it looks like your boat might be, but is it a real danger?

I, for one, will not be volunteering as a guinea pig.

[Neil2]

15 hours ago, TonyDunkley said:

.........................................Nb.  There is no "River Licence" - the Public Right of Navigation [PRN] on all of the C&RT controlled river navigations precludes the need for any such thing. The meaningless piece of paper that C&RT misrepresent and sell to boaters as a 'Rivers only Licence', is in fact simply a certificate of registration. 

Are you saying you don't need a licence for rivers..?

[noddyboater]

Alan, could you do me a favour next time you see the chap who trains the volunteers?  Can you ask him why they insist on making boaters who are descending use a bow and stern line, even if alone in the lock. I've argued many times that it's far safer if you're single handed to use a centre rope or none at all as it's impossible to watch 2 ropes 60' apart that often snag on the cables. What's the worst that can happen if you don't use lines at all? You might slowly get drawn towards the gates? Oh dear, how dangerous.. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Are you saying you don't need a licence for rivers..?

Correct where there is  PRN a licence is not required

The boat needs to be registered which is the document that C&RT conveniently call a ‘River Licence’ (so they can attach other T&Cs to it)

3 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

Alan, could you do me a favour next time you see the chap who trains the volunteers?  Can you ask him why they insist on making boaters who are descending use a bow and stern line, even if alone in the lock. I've argued many times that it's far safer if you're single handed to use a centre rope or none at all as it's impossible to watch 2 ropes 60' apart that often snag on the cables. What's the worst that can happen if you don't use lines at all? You might slowly get drawn towards the gates? Oh dear, how dangerous.. 

Agreed when descending, but ascending (and I think Nether is the worst on the Trent) it can be a wild-ride if the paddles are opened wide.

[TonyDunkley]

4 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Are you saying you don't need a licence for rivers..?

Yes, . . . and in fact C&RT do not, and cannot, issue any such thing, . . . they have no powers so to do. What they do pass off as a 'Rivers only Licence' is in truth a Pleasure Boat Certificate [PBC], formerly known in BWB days as a 'River Registration'.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

I, for one, will not be volunteering as a guinea pig.

Which of course is fine. All I was doing was attempting to evaluate the actual risk to the boat and it's crew versus the perceived risk as sometimes they can be very different things.

[Dave_P]

14 minutes ago, MJG said:

Which of course is fine. All I was doing was attempting to evaluate the actual risk to the boat and it's crew versus the perceived risk as sometimes they can be very different things.

It's all conjecture until someone tries it.  You first.