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Overplating & Skin Tank - the Kedian way :)


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On 10/8/2017 at 17:15, KEDIAN said:

Dear Black Rose  being as you state most people haven’t heard of me prior to this forum perhaps you might like a potted history of my work life     In 1967 I started working for Kearney and Treacker in Brighton and did a four year apprenticeship as a Fabricator welder passsing EITB courses with credits and City and Guilds fabricaton and welding courses with credit I moved to Northampton for personal reasons in 1973 and was offered a position with Hancock and Lane in Daventry and began a further apprenticeship in steel boat building I worked up through the ranks to become a leading hand  I have built boats for notable companies ie Peter Nicholls yacht builders. G &J Reeves  Probuild narrow boats and  Steelcraft during this time I have been involved in the construction of over 100 boats I decided that I would like to finish by running my own company Kedian Engineering  I bring over 45 yers of experience to this forum and am happy to share that if asked Thank you for your interest in my journey and for your comments on this forum which I take on board and read with interest  Martin 

Nothing more to be said really is there?

I think Blackrose would redeem himself in the eyes of the forum if he apologised for his ill considered remark.  

 

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On 08/10/2017 at 16:41, Tony Brooks said:

Perfectly OK with me as long as you do not mislead less technical people.

Here you go - http://www.canaline-engines.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/CL02-Canaline-Engines-keel-cooling-tanks.pdf

but note that in the text they advise two baffles, not the one shown on their diagram. Now how many has Kedian fitted?

<sarcasm on>

Must be one hell of a lot of hire and ex hire boats overheating if they were built to the engine supplier's specifications then. :)

<sarcasm off>

I wasn't misleading anyone Tony. For the benefit of those like yourself who apparently cannot read properly I'll state this for the second time: I was merely reporting the Beta recommendations and comparing it to the Kedian design. If you have a problem with the Beta recommendations then I suggest you take it up with Beta.

I've no idea how many hire boats would overheat if they ever got out onto open water and actually tried to use the engine....  All I know for sure is that the Beta design works perfectly on my boat and that's good enough for me.

Edited by blackrose
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On 08/10/2017 at 17:15, KEDIAN said:

Dear Black Rose  being as you state most people haven’t heard of me prior to this forum perhaps you might like a potted history of my work life     In 1967 I started working for Kearney and Treacker in Brighton and did a four year apprenticeship as a Fabricator welder passsing EITB courses with credits and City and Guilds fabricaton and welding courses with credit I moved to Northampton for personal reasons in 1973 and was offered a position with Hancock and Lane in Daventry and began a further apprenticeship in steel boat building I worked up through the ranks to become a leading hand  I have built boats for notable companies ie Peter Nicholls yacht builders. G &J Reeves  Probuild narrow boats and  Steelcraft during this time I have been involved in the construction of over 100 boats I decided that I would like to finish by running my own company Kedian Engineering  I bring over 45 yers of experience to this forum and am happy to share that if asked Thank you for your interest in my journey and for your comments on this forum which I take on board and read with interest  Martin 

That's an interesting potted work history Martin. My comment wasn't meant as a criticism in any way and I apologise if it was taken as such (although I'm not clear that I have actually offended you as Neil2 seems to be suggesting on your behalf?) Anyway, the fact remains that most people hadn't heard of your company before joining this forum, whereas most of us had heard of Beta. That's all I said and that was all I meant. Given the choice I would rather go with the recommendations of a well-known engine mariniser. That's just a personal decision.

20 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

But as I said, is the Beta suggestion the minimum standard. A bit like electrics and fridges, maybe you need 4mm cable, but would 6mm be better or worse?

Not quite an accurate analogy. You could go up in cable size indefinitely without any ill effects, but if you over-baffle then at some point there may be a problem.

Edited by blackrose
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50 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Nothing more to be said really is there?

I think Blackrose would redeem himself in the eyes of the forum if he apologised for his ill considered remark.  

 

Yes, there is more to be said:

It wasn't an ill-considered remark, it's a fact that not may of us had heard of Kedian Engineering before this forum started, just like most of us hadn't heard of Gibbo before we joined this forum. I wasn't criticising Martin's expertise, just like I never criticised Gibbo. 

Oh, and I don't need to "redeem myself" thank you. You are not the eyes of the forum and you do not speak for the forum.

Nothing more to be said by me except that a few people here seem intent on taking things the wrong way just because another member happens to offer an alternative view, even if that view is supported by the literature! So much for a discussion forum! :lol:

Edited by blackrose
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38 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Yes, there is more to be said:

It wasn't an ill-considered remark, it's a fact that not may of us had heard of Kedian Engineering before this forum started, just like most of us hadn't heard of Gibbo before we joined this forum. I wasn't criticising Martin's expertise, just like I never criticised Gibbo. 

Oh, and I don't need to "redeem myself" thank you. You are not the eyes of the forum and you do not speak for the forum.

Nothing more to be said by me except that a few people here seem intent on taking things the wrong way just because another member happens to offer an alternative view, even if that view is supported by the literature! So much for a discussion forum! :lol:

Neil 2 may not not be "the Eyes" of the Forum but I am probably not alone in considering you as often Impolite and expressing opinions that you do not have practical  experience of .

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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

That's an interesting potted work history Martin. My comment wasn't meant as a criticism in any way and I apologise if it was taken as such (although I'm not clear that I have actually offended you as Neil2 seems to be suggesting on your behalf?) Anyway, the fact remains that most people hadn't heard of your company before joining this forum, whereas most of us had heard of Beta. That's all I said and that was all I meant. Given the choice I would rather go with the recommendations of a well-known engine mariniser. That's just a personal decision.

Not quite an accurate analogy. You could go up in cable size indefinitely without any ill effects, but if you over-baffle then at some point there may be a problem.

You wouldn't get it in the terminals 

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For my 2 penneth worth as the boat in question is fitted with an older motor they generally require less cooling than a modern engine, i know if i was to replace my 4 cylinder lister alpha with an isuzu or beta my skin tanks would be totally inadequate, as for Martin, top guy and definitely knows his stuff,he made me new doors and a hatch last year and once he has 5 minutes have more fabricating for him to do :)  and i wholly recommend him to everyone i speak to.

Rick

 

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On 08/10/2017 at 09:30, blackrose said:

Why out on a limb? I've provided Beta's recommendations and in my opinion they've provided a more reliable guide and justification than anything else I've seen. If you can show me something else Tony I'd be very interested. I've nothing against Kedian and I know they do some excellent steelwork, but personally I'd certainly rather follow the recommendations of an engine mariniser than those of a  fabricator who most people had never heard of before this forum started. Yes, I'm sure Beta have made some cock-ups but I'm sure Kedian has too.

 

I engaged Mr Kedian to make and fit me two large pigeon boxes about ten years ago, before he turned up on this forum I suspect.

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13 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

Reminds me of the fridge cabling on our Ownerships boat. No idea what spec it was but it was so large when it got to the terminal block connector only three of the many strands would fit in the block. 

That’s not actually as bad as it might at first appear to be :)

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14 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

Reminds me of the fridge cabling on our Ownerships boat. No idea what spec it was but it was so large when it got to the terminal block connector only three of the many strands would fit in the block. 

You could have used these to reduce the size of the termination,  so it would fit into the terminal block.

 

USP_2c_UP_Pin_Terminals.jpg

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1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

I think I know what you mean there but would you care to elaborate?

The reason for the fat cable is to reduce the voltage drop down its length. However few strands connect at the end, the size of the cable over its run has succeeded in minimising the voltage drop as required. The number of strands used to make the connection were probably still more than sufficient to carry the rated current. 

I’m not suggesting for one moment that it’s good practice, because it isn’t. It’s just not as bad as one might initially presume. Using the lugs linked to above by cuthound would be a far superior way of terminating it. 

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I agree with your assessment that it served its purpose but there are far too many practitioners on the canal who take an artisan approach rather than doing the job properly. 

Going back to the original problem the suggestion that the water pump is not up to it is a serious indictment of the product. Beta Marine should be embarrassed about making such claims. The impeller on an Alde heater is an egg whisk by comparison but manages to do its job. 

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31 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Going back to the original problem the suggestion that the water pump is not up to it is a serious indictment of the product. Beta Marine should be embarrassed about making such claims. The impeller on an Alde heater is an egg whisk by comparison but manages to do its job. 

As i said in post #8, there is nothing wrong with the water pump fitted to the Beta 43. 

Mine  pumped the water through the engine, the calorifier and the central heating system on a 60 foot boat and had been doing so for who knows how long when I bought the boat, without any cooling problems.

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2 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

Going back to the original problem the suggestion that the water pump is not up to it is a serious indictment of the product. Beta Marine should be embarrassed about making such claims. The impeller on an Alde heater is an egg whisk by comparison but manages to do its job

 

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

As i said in post #8, there is nothing wrong with the water pump fitted to the Beta 43. 

Mine  pumped the water through the engine, the calorifier and the central heating system on a 60 foot boat and had been doing so for who knows how long when I bought the boat, without any cooling problems.

Not to mention the small pipes in a hydraulic gearbox oil cooler.

I think I am right in saying at one time Beta supplied engines that used the redundant heat exchanger core (in the manifold/header tank) as a gearbox oil cooler and reportedly wrecked a few gearboxes. If that is true it does not exactly fill one with confidence re their grasp of cooling matters.

 

 

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2 hours ago, cuthound said:

As i said in post #8, there is nothing wrong with the water pump fitted to the Beta 43. 

Mine  pumped the water through the engine, the calorifier and the central heating system on a 60 foot boat and had been doing so for who knows how long when I bought the boat, without any cooling problems.

Sorry, I extrapulated from Blackroses assertions. Beta are simply saying don't run the risk which implies to me that at some point they think there might be one.

I should say I don't have an axe to grind. I have a Beta 33 with an unbaffled skin tank.  

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