Which sort of battery should I get

[Dave_P]

I suspect the time is coming soon for me to replace my batteries.  I've always gone for a very standard set of 3 x 110ah leisure batteries and generally get them from the most convenient chandlery.  On my mooring I have mains electricity.  I also go off on extended cruises in all seasons, up to around 3 months at a time.  I have 525w of solar.  I have a 40a oldish Sterling charger.  I can also charge from a Kipor genny.

When on my mooring in winter I leave the charger on all the time.  In summer on my I let the solar keep my solar do its thing.  I know we're into autumn now but I can tell my batteries are losing charge overnight more than they did last year.

My question is this:  should I get the same old set of leisure batteries and expect to change them in a few years?  Or is it worth paying a bit more for something better.  I'm really not up for spending half my time coddling my batteries, I just want to get on with my life.  I've read on here that buying Trojan 105s or similar is only worthwhile if you're prepared to look after them properly but I'm not really sure what that entails?  I've read about equalisation charging but I'm not exactly sure what that even means, or whether I have the facility to do it with my set up?

I'd appreciate any advice.

Note, I simply don't have the funds to consider an all-singing traction battery bank costing mega bucks.  I'm simply wondering whether a slight upgrade would be worthwhile. 

Ta.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

I'm simply wondering whether a slight upgrade would be worthwhile. 

No - if you are not going to improve your 'maintenance' then just repeat what you have.

An expensive battery will be killed as easily as a cheap battery.

If you are making them last 3 years, then they are only costing you £1 per week just consider them as 'disposable'

[Dave_P]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No - if you are not going to improve your 'maintenance' then just repeat what you have.

An expensive battery will be killed as easily as a cheap battery.

If you are making them last 3 years, then they are only costing you £1 per week just consider them as 'disposable'

Thanks.  Is there any simple changes I can make to improve my maintenance?  For info, I am reasonably sensible when in comes to my batteries - I avoid letting them drop below 12.2v when resting.  I do try to give them a good long charge fairly frequently.

 

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Thanks.  Is there any simple changes I can make to improve my maintenance?  For info, I am reasonably sensible when in comes to my batteries - I avoid letting them drop below 12.2v when resting.  I do try to give them a good long charge fairly frequently.

 

I am with Alan on this keep the same set up. The only thing that would probably be a small benefit is to charge as early as possible. I rarely let mine go below 12.4 before charging and most mornings as now will charge ( off grid ) and my batts were at 12.5 when I started to charge.

[nicknorman]

I never got on well with cheapo leisure batteries, but if yours have lasted 3 years I suggest repeating with the same things.

That said we have a similar usage pattern and I've found our Trojans much better than cheapo leisures - they remain at full capacity after 4 years.

But obviously, being more expensive one wants to ensure they are kept in good condition and to that end, you need to have adequate charging systems, and adequate monitoring systems so that you know when the batteries are fully charged and you can keep an eye on any build up of sulphation.

charging: I find the ordinary alternator at 14.4v is quite adequate for charging in summer. For cold batteries, you need more voltage at the end of the charging process e.g. 15v or so, at least a few times over the winter. Some Sterling chargers have a user setting that allows you to set voltages up to 15.5v, but you don't say which model you have. If you do allow the batteries to sulphate a bit, to recover you need a few hours at 15.5v or so to equalise.

monitoring. An ammeter and voltmeter to monitor charging and determine when to stop charging. Ideally a means of measuring capacity - I do it with a combination of AH-counting gauge and a Smartgauge. Without that it would be a good idea to check the fully charged gravity every now and again to see if there is any sulphation.

dont forget T105s are 6v batteries and so you need them in pairs, 2, 4 etc. They are taller than standard leisure batteries but have a smaller footprint. They do use water and need topping up a few times a year so access might be an issue, although being 6v they have half as many cells and the caps are an easy to remove bayonet action.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Is there any simple changes I can make to improve my maintenance?

Equalisation = giving the batteries a 'good shake' up by charging at a higher than normal voltage (15v+) this stirs everything up, gets the sulphation moving and makes the batteries 'fizz'.

My Solar controller has a setting that allows you to 'programme' in an equalisation charge - and - I'm fairly sure that my Victron charger has the facility as well.

In an ideal world :

1) Keep batteries as charged as possible.

2) Recharge every day to 95% SoC

3) Recharge weekly to 99.99999% SoC

4) Check 'acid' levels - particularly after an equalisation charge.

[Dave_P]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I never got on well with cheapo leisure batteries, but if yours have lasted 3 years I suggest repeating with the same things.

That said we have a similar usage pattern and I've found our Trojans much better than cheapo leisures - they remain at full capacity after 4 years.

But obviously, being more expensive one wants to ensure they are kept in good condition and to that end, you need to have adequate charging systems, and adequate monitoring systems so that you know when the batteries are fully charged and you can keep an eye on any build up of sulphation.

charging: I find the ordinary alternator at 14.4v is quite adequate for charging in summer. For cold batteries, you need more voltage at the end of the charging process e.g. 15v or so, at least a few times over the winter. Some Sterling chargers have a user setting that allows you to set voltages up to 15.5v, but you don't say which model you have. If you do allow the batteries to sulphate a bit, to recover you need a few hours at 15.5v or so to equalise.

monitoring. An ammeter and voltmeter to monitor charging and determine when to stop charging. Ideally a means of measuring capacity - I do it with a combination of AH-counting gauge and a Smartgauge. Without that it would be a good idea to check the fully charged gravity every now and again to see if there is any sulphation.

dont forget T105s are 6v batteries and so you need them in pairs, 2, 4 etc. They are taller than standard leisure batteries but have a smaller footprint. They do use water and need topping up a few times a year so access might be an issue, although being 6v they have half as many cells and the caps are an easy to remove bayonet action.

1.  I've got a handheld multimeter.

2.  I have a digital display for my solar controller which tells me a few things.

3.  I don't have an AH counting gauge.

4.  I don't have a smartgauge.

5.  I don't think my charger allows me to set voltages.  How would I tell?

6.  I'm aware that T105s are 6v but Trojan, Rolls, etc also make quality 12v batteries.

I'm thinking I should just stick with the cheapos, unless I get a smartgauge, and a better charger as a minimum.  Which is a cost I don't want right now.

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Equalisation = giving the batteries a 'good shake' up by charging at a higher than normal voltage (15v+) this stirs everything up, gets the sulphation moving and makes the batteries 'fizz'.

My Solar controller has a setting that allows you to 'programme' in an equalisation charge - and - I'm fairly sure that my Victron charger has the facility as well.

In an ideal world :

1) Keep batteries as charged as possible.

2) Recharge every day to 95% SoC

3) Recharge weekly to 99.99999% SoC

4) Check 'acid' levels - particularly after an equalisation charge.

Interesting.  Mine may do too then, but I had a look through the instructions, found it all to be gobbledegook, and put the instructions away.  Now I have no idea where the instructions are!

[smileypete]

Quick battery selection guide:

Got any lasting interest in the things?

    - No? Fit reasonable el cheapos.

    - Yes? You probably already know what batteries are best...

Lasting interest would include the wise sayings of 'The Car And Deep Cycle Battery FAQ' and the ways of the voltmeter and ammeter.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Dave_P said:

I suspect the time is coming soon for me to replace my batteries.  I've always gone for a very standard set of 3 x 110ah leisure batteries and generally get them from the most convenient chandlery.  On my mooring I have mains electricity.  I also go off on extended cruises in all seasons, up to around 3 months at a time.  I have 525w of solar.  I have a 40a oldish Sterling charger.  I can also charge from a Kipor genny.

When on my mooring in winter I leave the charger on all the time.  In summer on my I let the solar keep my solar do its thing.  I know we're into autumn now but I can tell my batteries are losing charge overnight more than they did last year.

My question is this:  should I get the same old set of leisure batteries and expect to change them in a few years?  Or is it worth paying a bit more for something better.  I'm really not up for spending half my time coddling my batteries, I just want to get on with my life.  I've read on here that buying Trojan 105s or similar is only worthwhile if you're prepared to look after them properly but I'm not really sure what that entails?  I've read about equalisation charging but I'm not exactly sure what that even means, or whether I have the facility to do it with my set up?

I'd appreciate any advice.

Note, I simply don't have the funds to consider an all-singing traction battery bank costing mega bucks.  I'm simply wondering whether a slight upgrade would be worthwhile. 

Ta.

 

 

Leoch GTP batteries more expensive but light years ahead of the rest at the moment

[Dave_P]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Leoch GTP batteries more expensive but light years ahead of the rest at the moment

Tell me more

 

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Dave_P said:

Tell me more

 

Gell batteries tubular cells come in 12v or 6v maintenance free 1500 cycles have a look at the net but I am fitting them on my electric boat as full tractions are two big for it and these seem the best for the job

Bay item number:

112289990312

You will have to paste the number in to ebay but a search will find 12v versions and better prices

[Dave_P]

Just now, peterboat said:

Gell batteries tubular cells come in 12v or 6v maintenance free 1500 cycles have a look at the net but I am fitting them on my electric boat as full tractions are two big for it and these seem the best for the job

Bay item number:

112289990312

You will have to paste the number in to ebay but a search will find 12v versions and better prices

Looks like they need a very precise charging regime?

 

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Looks like they need a very precise charging regime?

 

Mine will be on solar and a whispergen for charging I can set up both to do this. These have been in use in America for years and are very long lasting, read up and they might fit your bill

[Dave_P]

Just now, peterboat said:

Mine will be on solar and a whispergen for charging I can set up both to do this. These have been in use in America for years and are very long lasting, read up and they might fit your bill

I've just read that they are likely to need a specialised charger.  I have no idea what a whispergen is

 

[dmr]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

I never got on well with cheapo leisure batteries, but if yours have lasted 3 years I suggest repeating with the same things.

That said we have a similar usage pattern and I've found our Trojans much better than cheapo leisures - they remain at full capacity after 4 years.

But obviously, being more expensive one wants to ensure they are kept in good condition and to that end, you need to have adequate charging systems, and adequate monitoring systems so that you know when the batteries are fully charged and you can keep an eye on any build up of sulphation.

charging: I find the ordinary alternator at 14.4v is quite adequate for charging in summer. For cold batteries, you need more voltage at the end of the charging process e.g. 15v or so, at least a few times over the winter. Some Sterling chargers have a user setting that allows you to set voltages up to 15.5v, but you don't say which model you have. If you do allow the batteries to sulphate a bit, to recover you need a few hours at 15.5v or so to equalise.

monitoring. An ammeter and voltmeter to monitor charging and determine when to stop charging. Ideally a means of measuring capacity - I do it with a combination of AH-counting gauge and a Smartgauge. Without that it would be a good idea to check the fully charged gravity every now and again to see if there is any sulphation.

dont forget T105s are 6v batteries and so you need them in pairs, 2, 4 etc. They are taller than standard leisure batteries but have a smaller footprint. They do use water and need topping up a few times a year so access might be an issue, although being 6v they have half as many cells and the caps are an easy to remove bayonet action.

Just a few things to add,

It looks like most Trojans have now lost those lovely bayonet caps. On a battery bank of a given size there are in fact the same number of cells in Trojans and standard batteries. As they get older they do need a lot more topping up, my original pair are now needing water every two hundred hours (of engine running time) and even then the plates are popping out. The more recent 4, like yours, only need water once or twice each year.

I also suggest the op stays with standard leisures, but with a landline and solar he would most likely get on equally well with Trojans as long as he can provide a suitable charge voltage and equalisation so as long as access is ok its a close run thing.

.............Dave

[Dave_P]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

Just a few things to add,

It looks like most Trojans have now lost those lovely bayonet caps. On a battery bank of a given size there are in fact the same number of cells in Trojans and standard batteries. As they get older they do need a lot more topping up, my original pair are now needing water every two hundred hours (of engine running time) and even then the plates are popping out. The more recent 4, like yours, only need water once or twice each year.

I also suggest the op stays with standard leisures, but with a landline and solar he would most likely get on equally well with Trojans as long as he can provide a suitable charge voltage and equalisation so as long as access is ok its a close run thing.

.............Dave

How do I provide an equalisation charge?

 

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

How do I provide an equalisation charge?

 

Fully charge batteries then "overcharge" for a few of hours at about 15.5volts. Lots of stuff on this forum about this. People talk of monitoring temperature and measuring specific gravity every hour but that's tedious and I never bother. Ordinary batteries can also benefit from equalisation but with Trojans its pretty much essential. This is probably in part because they last much longer so you really need to prevent the slow death by sulphation syndrome. Its just possible that you solar controller is already doing this for you.

.................Dave

[Dave_P]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

Fully charge batteries then "overcharge" for a few of hours at about 15.5volts. Lots of stuff on this forum about this. People talk of monitoring temperature and measuring specific gravity every hour but that's tedious and I never bother. Ordinary batteries can also benefit from equalisation but with Trojans its pretty much essential. This is probably in part because they last much longer so you really need to prevent the slow death by sulphation syndrome. Its just possible that you solar controller is already doing this for you.

.................Dave

Sorry, misunderstanding.  The principle of an equalisation charge has been explained earlier in the thread, but, given what set up I've described - how do I (as in me) do an equalisation charge?

[peterboat]

48 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Sorry, misunderstanding.  The principle of an equalisation charge has been explained earlier in the thread, but, given what set up I've described - how do I (as in me) do an equalisation charge?

I dont think you can which is why I suggested the GTPs

[WotEver]

47 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Sorry, misunderstanding.  The principle of an equalisation charge has been explained earlier in the thread, but, given what set up I've described - how do I (as in me) do an equalisation charge?

Either find the Solar manual (online possibly?) or check your charger’s manual. If one of those can do an equalisation cycle then that’s how

If they can’t, then carry on as you are. 

I agree with all the sensible answers above - stick with your cheapies. You’re getting 3 years from them right now and you’re unlikely to see any financial benefit from buying more expensive. 

[dmr]

47 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Sorry, misunderstanding.  The principle of an equalisation charge has been explained earlier in the thread, but, given what set up I've described - how do I (as in me) do an equalisation charge?

I suspect you would need a new suitable battery charger or possibly alternator controller so again its probably easier just to stick with standard leisures for now, but if you heed to replace the battery charger at some stage then get one that can equalise to keep your options open for the future.  Its possible your present charge might be able to equalise, what model is it?

The solar charger might equalise, trouble its usually the winter when equalisation is more important and thats when the sun don't shine.

...............Dave

[bizzard]

The beauty of the old batteries with the exposed cell connecting bars on top, was. If you had several old batteries that had dead cells in them but some cells which were still good and seviceable you could drill into the appropriate good cell connecting bars to make terminals and connect up the six cells required with cables to get your 12v, omitting the deadun's.  Batteries lasted much longer by this proceedure too, its  was just the extra space needed which could be a problem

[OldGoat]

I have a very, very old Sterling battery charger and that has settings for different types of batteries. AFAIR it is also 'intelligent' in that is performs equalization routines as well. The lights and switch settings are on the RHS next to basic instructions.

If you leave the charger on all day, I'm wondering whether the problem is that you don't have sufficient battery capacity in the first place and / or the charger is not set up correctly.

Thinks - if the charger is very small - say 5" x 4" x 2" tall, then it's only about 10 amp and not sufficient for a larger battery bank?   

[Dave_P]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

I dont think you can which is why I suggested the GTPs

But then I would need a new battery charger, wouldn’t I?

[Dave_P]

This is my battery charger. Any thoughts?

the battery type selector is set to unsealed lead acid  

Edited September 23, 2017 by Dave_P