Fitting a Webasto

[cuthound]

My boat has plastic piping with copper tails to the radiators. The pipework is hidden behind acremovsblev"skirting" which runs the length of the boat. 

[mrsmelly]

My boat has 22 mil pipe and return running full length of boat from engine bay to pointy end across the front under the steps and down the other side of the boat like a ring main. This enables fitting as with my boat of rads wherever you want them on both sides of the boat. This works faultlessly at present with webasto and previously with hurricane. We have several fin rads and double rads and it gets thouroughly hot and never cycles.

[Johny London]

That's interesting - so you mean two lots of 22mm all the way around and connected back up? I don't have much free wall space on the Starboard side so I will keep it to just port side. Plastic with copper tails sounds good too.

Don't get me started on radiators - I was toying with the idea of the ones that look like skirting board (as seen on Dragons Den I believe). I'll look again but remember thinking that it required the system to run quite hot (70c but I might be wrong about that) and that heat output wasn't amazing - though it would be even and also good to have at the lowest point.

I'm currently leaning toward two column rads (x4 plus a bathroom one) though of course they are a tad deeper than an ordinary flat panel but not by much and would mostly be within the shadow of the gunnel anyway. Annoyingly no deals around yet - last year when I had my mind on other things Screwfix were knocking them out very competitively. So, we'll see.

[jddevel]

8 hours ago, Johny London said:

Plastic with copper tails sounds good too.

Why don`t more people consider/use Uponor. Fool proof so easy. I`ve had failings with John Guest, Hep2O and copper compression but in 7 years of Uponor only one failure when I forgot to crimp a connection. That was in the early days when as I use to with copper I`d sweated a run I crimped a run and missed one joint. Typical it was behind a boiler and actually didn`t leak for nearly 6 months when the joint eventually blew.

[Johny London]

I'm not familiar with Uponor. If I use copper I'll prolly solder, unless that is not recommended for boats (vibration?) then again if I'm boxing in the pipework it doesn't really matter about large plastic fittings, so it might come down to whatever I can get a deal on at the time.

It's the next project on the list - while I finish painting the boat this week

[NMEA]

Solder can crack on a boat, when using copper we use Yorkshire Tectite push fit fittings as they have a little give and have never had an issue, nice brass Munsen rings for tube support makes for a lovely looking job.

[mchancox]

Hi, I Fitted/serviced/repaired Webasto heaters on-board boats as part of my Marine Business.  Most if not all installations were with Hep2o or speed fit, never had problems with leaks or poor fitting.  Always made the ends off properly with the reinforcing insert (Which some used to leave out) inserted in the pipe end. The main run was 22mm pipe and the t off for each rad was with a 22mm to 15mm t-piece.  Some customers specified copper with compression fittings.  I also had a few that wanted chromed copper!  No joints were ever solder due to the risk of fracture on both the water side and the fuel side too.

All systems were fitted with a header tank, none of them were pressurised.  They don't need to be pressurised as the water pump on the boiler is adequate enough to pump the water/antifreeze mix around the system.

Setting up should be done properly to ensure that the correct burn rate is achieved.  This was done with a gas analyser up the exhaust and adjusting the Combustion fan speed on the laptop to get the correct burn rate %.  If anyone has a laptop with the Webasto diagnostics this is easily done.  Every service I would download the info from the ECU and retain it to build a picture of how the boilers were performing over the years. Kerosene has been used in the boilers and it was shown to have detrimental effects on the burner tube gauze.  The boilers were designed to run on Diesel and not heating fuel (Which sometimes get used in the marine world).

[mrsmelly]

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 12:26, Johny London said:

That's interesting - so you mean two lots of 22mm all the way around and connected back up? I don't have much free wall space on the Starboard side so I will keep it to just port side. Plastic with copper tails sounds good too.

Don't get me started on radiators - I was toying with the idea of the ones that look like skirting board (as seen on Dragons Den I believe). I'll look again but remember thinking that it required the system to run quite hot (70c but I might be wrong about that) and that heat output wasn't amazing - though it would be even and also good to have at the lowest point.

I'm currently leaning toward two column rads (x4 plus a bathroom one) though of course they are a tad deeper than an ordinary flat panel but not by much and would mostly be within the shadow of the gunnel anyway. Annoyingly no deals around yet - last year when I had my mind on other things Screwfix were knocking them out very competitively. So, we'll see.

Yes that's correct. Two lengths of 22 mil pipe the whole way up one side across the front and down the other. There is a mixture of several finrads that were fitted when the heat source was a hurricane boiler and when it was replaced with webasto last year four double rads added two on each side of the boat, the webasto never cycles and rads get very hot so its spot on. Just as an addition on the subject this boat was purpose built as liveaboard and has water supplys both port and starboard sides full length enabling such as sinks, shower trays, washing machines etc to be installed virtualy anywhere unlike many boats that just utilise one side, also ac ring mains both sides, it aint rocket science and easy to set up on a new shell yet many don't do it.

[blackrose]

I was thinking of fitting a Webasto, but after reading this thread they sound like a pain in the arse. Isn't there anything more reliable - whatever happened to the Hurricane heater - it was meant to be bulletproof?  

[cuthound]

56 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I was thinking of fitting a Webasto, but after reading this thread they sound like a pain in the arse. Isn't there anything more reliable - whatever happened to the Hurricane heater - it was meant to be bulletproof?  

Still available from Calcutt Boats, but they have had issues with the air pump in the past I beleive.

However they are easy to service and above all designed for continuous operation unlike Webasto Thermotops and Ebersplutters which are adapted vehicle heaters.

That said I have had zero issues with my Webasto Thermotop  simply by ensuring that it is never on long enough to cycle.

Edited October 5, 2017 by cuthound

[mrsmelly]

35 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I was thinking of fitting a Webasto, but after reading this thread they sound like a pain in the arse. Isn't there anything more reliable - whatever happened to the Hurricane heater - it was meant to be bulletproof?  

The hurricane is fab I had one on here but after about a million hours useage by previous owner I took it for a service and it was not serviceable. A new one was more than I was prepared to pay so I got a webasto cheap setup from fleabay over a year ago and its been faultless thus far and very very cheap. In short the hurricane is superb but costly IF it goes wrong and was fitted when it was the only form of heating on this boat but I fitted a morso stove so I just need a secondary source so paid for the cheaper option. In my opinion if cost isn't a worry the hurricane was first class for boat work but I have had webasto before and again now and its fine as a secondary heat source.

[NMEA]

There is a new pressure jet heater soon to be released that will run on 12v and will wipe the floor with the likes of Hurricane. It is small enough for most narrowboat installs but has enough output for widebeams. It will not be as cheap as a Thermo Top but cheaper, less bulky and more powerful than the Hurricane. Also a unit of similar size to the Thermo Top but copes better with cycling, it is already available in 24v so just waiting for the 12v model to get marine approval.

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, NMEA said:

There is a new pressure jet heater soon to be released that will run on 12v and will wipe the floor with the likes of Hurricane. It is small enough for most narrowboat installs but has enough output for widebeams. It will not be as cheap as a Thermo Top but cheaper, less bulky and more powerful than the Hurricane. Also a unit of similar size to the Thermo Top but copes better with cycling, it is already available in 24v so just waiting for the 12v model to get marine approval.

Exellent news please keep us informed it sounds ideal at last

[blackrose]

21 minutes ago, NMEA said:

There is a new pressure jet heater soon to be released that will run on 12v and will wipe the floor with the likes of Hurricane. It is small enough for most narrowboat installs but has enough output for widebeams. It will not be as cheap as a Thermo Top but cheaper, less bulky and more powerful than the Hurricane. Also a unit of similar size to the Thermo Top but copes better with cycling, it is already available in 24v so just waiting for the 12v model to get marine approval.

Yes, let us know, I'll be very interested in getting one. Is it made by Webasto?

Edited October 5, 2017 by blackrose

[Johny London]

On 04/10/2017 at 13:11, mchancox said:

Hi, I Fitted/serviced/repaired Webasto heaters on-board boats as part of my Marine Business.  Most if not all installations were with Hep2o or speed fit, never had problems with leaks or poor fitting.  Always made the ends off properly with the reinforcing insert (Which some used to leave out) inserted in the pipe end. The main run was 22mm pipe and the t off for each rad was with a 22mm to 15mm t-piece.  Some customers specified copper with compression fittings.  I also had a few that wanted chromed copper!  No joints were ever solder due to the risk of fracture on both the water side and the fuel side too.

All systems were fitted with a header tank, none of them were pressurised.  They don't need to be pressurised as the water pump on the boiler is adequate enough to pump the water/antifreeze mix around the system.

Setting up should be done properly to ensure that the correct burn rate is achieved.  This was done with a gas analyser up the exhaust and adjusting the Combustion fan speed on the laptop to get the correct burn rate %.  If anyone has a laptop with the Webasto diagnostics this is easily done.  Every service I would download the info from the ECU and retain it to build a picture of how the boilers were performing over the years. Kerosene has been used in the boilers and it was shown to have detrimental effects on the burner tube gauze.  The boilers were designed to run on Diesel and not heating fuel (Which sometimes get used in the marine world).

Thank you for what must be the definitive posting on this thread! No solder will be used.

[Johny London]

I've just made a start on fitting - well, opened the box and made a list of what else I need.

I see a fuel filter should be included between the fuel tank and the pump - and I remember someone saying the id would be 2mm for the fuel line. Anyway, the plastic fuel line with the kit, I assume is not suitable. It's about 4mm od. Would I be looking for 4mm copper pipe and a fuel filter to match or is that not the right size?

[Flyboy]

On 05/10/2017 at 19:50, blackrose said:

I was thinking of fitting a Webasto, but after reading this thread they sound like a pain in the arse. Isn't there anything more reliable - whatever happened to the Hurricane heater - it was meant to be bulletproof?  

Totally disagree. My Webasto Top C has run faultlessly for nearly 10 years and has never been serviced.

[NMEA]

Install it property, use it properly and give it good clean fuel and it will serve well. The reason some are a pain in the arse is because they have been installed by people who think they know better than the factory instructions.

[Flyboy]

36 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I've just made a start on fitting - well, opened the box and made a list of what else I need.

I see a fuel filter should be included between the fuel tank and the pump - and I remember someone saying the id would be 2mm for the fuel line. Anyway, the plastic fuel line with the kit, I assume is not suitable. It's about 4mm od. Would I be looking for 4mm copper pipe and a fuel filter to match or is that not the right size?

I think you will find that plastic fuel lines will fail the BSS.  A Delphi 296 fuel filter/separator is an essential fitment IMO.

[cereal tiller]

5 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

I think you will find that plastic fuel lines will fail the BSS.  A Delphi 296 fuel filter/separator is an essential fitment IMO.

The BS7840 Flexible Rubber Hose is not hard to find,Try Pirtek hoses, they do the smaller sizes required.

[Johny London]

59 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

I think you will find that plastic fuel lines will fail the BSS.  A Delphi 296 fuel filter/separator is an essential fitment IMO.

Yes, thats what I assumed, hence my asking about fuel line sizes, I want to use copper and link it with short bits of hose as per the correct way.

Thanks for the fuel filter reference - now I know what to get.

[NMEA]

The correct fuel lines to BSS requirements comes in the kit along with everything else you need.

You clearly have a vehicle kit looking at your earlier post so will have no warranty, the unit will cut out at higher voltages than  proper unit. Why not just buy the right kit in the first place? Actually that question is rhetorical as I'm pretty sure I know the answer.

[cereal tiller]

On 25/09/2017 at 12:01, cuthound said:

My boat has plastic piping with copper tails to the radiators. The pipework is hidden behind acremovsblev"skirting" which runs the length of the boat. 

Acremovsblev Skirting, is that manufactured  by the Anagram Corporation,or is it the Standard Acme stuff?

[WotEver]

10 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

Acremovsblev Skirting, is that manufactured  by the Anagram Corporation,or is it the Standard Acme stuff?

Ain’t it odd that by adding a ‘c’ instead of a space and an ‘s’ instead of an ‘a’ you can make an English word into Cyrillic. 

[cereal tiller]

34 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Ain’t it odd that by adding a ‘c’ instead of a space and an ‘s’ instead of an ‘a’ you can make an English word into Cyrillic. 

Cyrillic's are usually nice ones.Yep, Nice ones Cyrillics.

Edited November 8, 2017 by cereal tiller