Fitting a Webasto

[Silebyman]

I decided in the end to glue a wooden board to the front face of the fuel tank.  Before I glued the board to the tank, I mounted 4 of the cotton reel type exhaust rubbers from old sports cars etc.  to it by drilling through and putting nuts on the back face.  The Webasto mounting bracket hangs on these, so the heater unit is all rubber mounted.

The rubber mounted fuel pump, and the air intake silencer is mounted off this board as well.

When it's running I can hardly hear the thing running, which is great apart from when I want to check it's not cycling as I have to stick my head out of the boat doors!

 

[Johny London]

Ah - I made up a board in readiness but prolly wont use it in the end - I've got 4 rubber bobbins coming, will just go with those and the bracket if I mount on the bulkhead - I'll do m6 threaded holes for the bobbins. I think my pump and filter will be further back.

I'm trying to find someone who has gone the pressurised system route - ie with expansion vessel - I'm not sure whether I'll just put it next to the heater or what.

Glad to hear it will be pretty quiet because ones that I checked out in youtube videos where screaming away.

[Silebyman]

I've mounted it on the fuel tank wall for 2 reasons - keeps all the fuel pipes as short as possible - the dip tube to the fuel tank is about 12" away from the unit.

 

Second -  I haven't got any noise generators on the bulkhead of the cabin.  Bit of a shaky video attached, bear in mind this is filming right next to it.  As previously mentioned I can barely hear it when the deck boards are down.

IMG_2890.MOV

[NMEA]

31 minutes ago, Johny London said:

 

I'm trying to find someone who has gone the pressurised system route - ie with expansion vessel - I'm not sure whether I'll just put it next to the heater or what.

As I have said previously, nearly all the new installs we have done for some time have been pressurised. It really doesn' matter where the pressure vessel is as the pressure is the same throughout the system. Just put it wherever is easiest, it is worth mounting the pressure gauge where it can be easily seen.

[Johny London]

I'm sure you are all wondering how I am getting on Well, it should all be up and running by the summer!

Seriously, it's been slow going - mainly due to difficult access, bad weather, and a certain lack of enthusiasm on my part. However, I've made some progress. Rads, calorifier and all internal pipework done (note to self - speedfit is a pita). The expansion vessel is fitted in the engine bay, along with the pressure gauge (which had to go on the manifold, which in turn goes with the vessel). The fill loop is nice and neat and I can easily control it while pressurising and keeping an eye on the gauge. Just waiting for the rubber hose so I can hook up to the Webasto itself - oh and still to connect the wiring, exhaust and the fuel pump, pipe and filter.

That's what I'm wanting to know next - obviously the proper bestest way is to go for a fresh take off from the fuel tank, but I have heard of successful installs that T off from the existing fuel pipe or possibly there was talk of using the spare outlet (is it for bleeding?) from the Delphi 296 filter. I'd certainly like to avoid drilling the main fuel tank. I also still need the fuel pipe which is 5mm od (not 4mm) and 2mm id - naturally it is ten times the price of the commonly available brake line etc.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Johny London

[system 4-50]

2 minutes ago, Johny London said:

speedfit is a pita

in what way? I've always found it good.

[Johny London]

It needs lots of pipe clips, the fittings are bulky. You can't put bends into the pipe. It all twists about wen you do the next bit. If you want to undo a fitting (that;s if you can) the insert gets left behind so you have to take the whole thing apart. Oh and it is easy to have doubts as to whether every joint has an insert and there is no easy way of checking. It's ugly too.

If I was doing it again I'd prolly use the plastic pipe for cheapness (Screwfix do one that is half the price of the official speedfit pipe, both in rolls and singles but it is well buried in the catalogue) but with compression fittings. I've done loads of plumbing in copper in the past so I guess it is what you are used to. I knew soldering was out so...

But if anyone has anything to say on the fuel line connection - please speak now!

[NMEA]

Some people get away with tapping the fuel line and others find it causes issues and poor running or non starts after inactivity due to drain back.. I always use the correct method straight from the tank as it only takes fifteen minutes to drill and tap the tank wall and install a 2mm bore tube using a 1/4 BSP to 3_16" compression fitting, this always works perfectly and continues to do so for ever.

[Silebyman]

I drilled the fuel tank after being advised not to use the extra fitting on the fuel filter etc. 

Its really not that hard. Ordered bsp taper tap and matching compression fitting for fuel pipe on web and went for it. 

Grease the end of the drill/tap stops swarf going in the tank

I also used some diesel proof sealant to smear on the fitting threads just in case it was tempted to weep. 

Bend the pipe to suit your tank and make sure end is couple of inches above engine take off from tank stops you running out of fuel for engine by accident and keeps it away from any possible muck in tank. 

Make sure tank level below new tapping before drilling!

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Silebyman said:

Make sure tank level below new tapping before drilling!

Best bit of advice in the whole thread

Thread... I made a funny...

[NMEA]

It's also worth a mention that where you use the rubber joining hoses at the tank, pump and heater (BS 7840 hoses only allowed) that the copper pipe should be formed, it's a BSS requirement. Though I doubt any inspector would dismantle to check I have seen non formed ones pull out and anyway it's another one of those things where you know the job has been done right. A brake pipe flaring tool using the right former is a good enough tool for this, you can also achieve it by using a compression olive and then removing the fitting.  

[Johny London]

Thanks for the excellently informative replies. I had been a little concerned about a/igniting the diesel and b/ dropping swarf in the tank, but it sounds well within the scope of what I could do.

Handy tip about the compression olives.

I'll need to ascertain exactly where my tank is and figure out where the bottom is, but I think I will go that way.

[Silebyman]

Diesel doesn't ignite - drop a match in it and it will go out.

I put my fitting as high in the tank wall as I could get to with a drill.

Check, and check again you have the drill dia / tapping tool size correct for the fitting you want to use. 

NMEA advised me that you can get a 1/4BSPT - 5mm compression fitting  (T=taper thread) from a company called BES. They do online ordering etc.

The tapping drill to suit 1/4BSPT is 11.8mm

 

When you assemble the fitting into the new hole in the tank, tighten it gently.  The steel won't be that thick, and if you apply too much force you will rip the new thread straight out...

[Johny London]

I had thought to use the Webasto fuel pick up kit - it says just drill a 25mm hole with a hole saw - I presume it can be fitted from external, perhaps in the same way as when adding a connection to a hot water cylinder? But the only pick ups I can find now are straight (I thought I saw a curved 90 degree one on ebay one time a while back). Obviously as I'll be going into the side wall of the tank I need a bend in it.

So, that leads me to think about silebymans reply - sorry I didn't quite understand, so there is a tapered fitting that will just screw in from the outside? And presumably it will then grip the 5mm pipe that I would fashion a 90degree bend onto, pass it through then tighten the nut on the fitting? There is a picture of something similar on the webasto install document, but it seems to show large washers on both sides which I can't see would be possible without internal access.

Any chance you could link me to the fitting on the bes website - I tried a few different terms in their search but nothing likely came up. I did phone them but they said I should use a 22mm flange (as per hot water cylinder type) and reduce down.

I found somewhere I can get 5m of the correct for "just" £40, so I'm nearly there now

Edited January 9, 2018 by Johny London

[NMEA]

Do not try to use the standard Webo tank fitting on a tank wall. The likelihood is they it will leak, they are designed for tank tops where they have zero head of fuel. This is why we Webasto dealers that do a lot of narrowboats and widebeams came up with the now tried and tested method being discussed here. I was thinking of making some and putting them on eBay but the time spent would not be worth the price one could get. When you get the fitting it is sometimes necessary to run a drill right through it to allow the pickup tube to pass through.

Edited January 9, 2018 by NMEA

[Johny London]

I'm sure you could get a worthwhile price - everything else seems to be super inflated!

I'm still not entirely clear what I need regarding this fitting though - even bes themselves could shed no light. If you could point me to the part I'd be grateful - should be no problem running through it with a drill.

thanks

Edited January 9, 2018 by Johny London

[Silebyman]

This is the item concerned.

The threaded part you can see goes into the horizontal hole you need to drill and tap into the fuel tank wall ( gently as previously mentioned)

The copper olive inside the other half is crushed down to nip the 5mm fuel pipe which passes through the fitting.

Picture it like the pipe and valve arrangement on the water pipework, only this time you are screwing into the tank wall not a radiator.

The fuel pipe needs to be bent to an L shape, so when all assembled the end of the pipe dangles above the bottom of the tank

 

 

[Johny London]

Brilliant - thanks!!!

So I'll just need the right tap to thread the hole and some fuel proof sealant paste?

Edited January 9, 2018 by Johny London

[Johny London]

Just looking at brae flaring videos online to get an idea of the process - it looks like quite a ridged end is produced, is that suitable?

Saw this little kit...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAKE-FUEL-PIPE-REPAIR-TOOL-METRIC-FLARING-KIT-MINI-BENDER-RED-BOX-UK-SALE/282588526986?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&autorefresh=true

In two minds to go with that or the olive technique, which kinda seems a lot more gentle on the rubber hose.

[Silebyman]

Diesel proof thread sealant - I used Rectorseal Tru Blu.

available in toolstation for about 3 quid.

Worked for me...

 

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p40236?r=googleshopping&rr=marin&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=s03aJg4QW_dc&pcrid=142003768299&pkw=&pmt=&product=40236&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_fzooeLN2AIVqwrTCh1x9A2JEAYYASABEgK4VfD_BwE

[NMEA]

3 hours ago, Johny London said:

Just looking at brae flaring videos online to get an idea of the process - it looks like quite a ridged end is produced, is that suitable?

Saw this little kit...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAKE-FUEL-PIPE-REPAIR-TOOL-METRIC-FLARING-KIT-MINI-BENDER-RED-BOX-UK-SALE/282588526986?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&autorefresh=true

In two minds to go with that or the olive technique, which kinda seems a lot more gentle on the rubber hose.

The end should be formed rather than flared, most flaring tools have the former that makes a smooth bulge rather than a flare.

[jddevel]

Local garage did mine. As I use them anyway. No charge. Can`t pull it off (two jubilee clips) and passed BSS in October. 

[Johny London]

Thanks guys, I have ordered the 5m pipe, and arranged for them to cut it and flare the ends ready for me (3m, 1.5m and 0.5m) though I might need to re do one or two ends as those could be a bit long. I ordered some olives so will use the taper fitting to nip them up - though I can now see a problem with doing that (how do I then get the nut off?) Guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Thanks for the tru blu - at least one thing that's not too pricey. Didn't fancy the rectumseal

Someone will bring me all the parts next weekend so I'm going to be stuck until then - just the rad tails to do infact.

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Johny London said:

I can now see a problem with doing that (how do I then get the nut off?) Guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Bend the inlet pipe. 

Create the dummy flare with the olive. 

Remove the nut used to nip up the olive.

Insert pipe through fitting (not forgetting nut).

Insert assembly into tank. 

Tighten. 

[Johny London]

Thanks - that will work fine, but if I need to shorten one of the other bits then the flare on the end will stop me removing the nut

I'll certainly expect to shorten the connection between the filter and pump, so that might be the only sticking point.