Wrong HIN number advice

[MtB]

There is a whole load of half-correct information bandied about in pubs and brokers offices about RCD. The way to find out for sure what the rules are is to get a copy of the regulation and read it yourself. 

I did this when I bought my first non-RCD boat, and to summarise, only a boat less than five years old needs one. Once the five year deadline has passed then a boat may be sold without one. I'm shocked your broker is unaware of this. 

I downloaded the RCD regulation from the internet. Have a google and find it, and read it for yourself rather than relying on hearsay. 

[HelloHello]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There is a whole load of half-correct information bandied about in pubs and brokers offices about RCD. The way to find out for sure what the rules are is to get a copy of the regulation and read it yourself. 

I did this when I bought my first non-RCD boat, and to summarise, only a boat less than five years old needs one. Once the five year deadline has passed then a boat may be sold without one. I'm shocked your broker is unaware of this. 

I downloaded the RCD regulation from the internet. Have a google and find it, and read it for yourself rather than relying on hearsay. 

Thanks for this!

I will most certainly do what you suggest,

Regards,

Nick

[JamesFrance]

Have you checked the HIN No on the paperwork to see if it seems to be real and matches the builder's name?

https://britishmarine.co.uk/Services/Business-Support/Technical-Support/Manufacturers-Identity-Code-MIC

[WotEver]

Slightly more informative link:

http://www.boatshedsupport.com/article/90-hin-hull-identification-numbers

[Tony Brooks]

But the OP stated that the HIN number on the paperwork is a forgery and the builder admitted it. That's the bit that is wrong and potentially fraud (if its true). It can not be a legitimate document with a false HIN number so it was presented as an official document to enable a sale. Sounds like fraud to me but until the OP actually contacts trading standards he will not know.

I agree the status of the document NOW is largely irrelevant though.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

But the OP stated that the HIN number on the paperwork is a forgery and the builder admitted it. That's the bit that is wrong and potentially fraud (if its true). It can not be a legitimate document with a false HIN number so it was presented as an official document to enable a sale. Sounds like fraud to me but until the OP actually contacts trading standards he will not know.

I agree the status of the document NOW is largely irrelevant though.

I fail I fail to see how a builder can forge his own HIN. The regs require tgevbuilder makes them up for himself, in whatever format he wishes IIRC, so how can the builder have issued a forged HIN on his RCD?

[cuthound]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I fail I fail to see how a builder can forge his own HIN. The regs require tgevbuilder makes them up for himself, in whatever format he wishes IIRC, so how can the builder have issued a forged HIN on his RCD?

I agree, the only confusion can be if the builder issued that HIN to more than one boat, or even all the boats he built.

[Tony Brooks]

Right but is the document that contains it an official document like a download and does the HIN need to be registered some where or recorded in a register kept by the builder? If not then one could reasonably conclude that the broker probably has an ulterior motive. If yes and this has not been done then how could the boat be RCD compliant at the point of sale without the correct documents?

[HelloHello]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I fail I fail to see how a builder can forge his own HIN. The regs require tgevbuilder makes them up for himself, in whatever format he wishes IIRC, so how can the builder have issued a forged HIN on his RCD?

Basically when this all came to light the brokerage im selling through requested the boat builders contact details and the brokerage I bought the boat from.

The brokerage then contacted both on my behalf and informed me that the builder doesn't use HIN numbers which he the brokerage selling my boat deemed it to be an illegal act which is looking like is not the case. 

The origin of the letter of conformity could have been created by the builder, the brokerage that sold it to me or the queen.  Maybe an original letter was lost and perhaps this was created at a buyer's request, I'm not sure, but I have it in my folder that came with the boat.

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks to everyone who replied to this, I'm starting to feel a bit better about the situation and at least things a bit clearer.

[WotEver]

Just now, cuthound said:

But the OP stated that the HIN number on the paperwork is a forgery...

I suspect OP based that statement on what he was told by the broker coupled with a lack of understanding. 

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I suspect OP based that statement on what he was told by the broker coupled with a lack of understanding. 

Err, it wasn't me that said that,  it was Tony Brooks. Not sure how you manged to attribute my name to Tony's post.

40 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

But the OP stated that the HIN number on the paperwork is a forgery

 

[WotEver]

14 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Err, it wasn't me that said that,  it was Tony Brooks. Not sure how you manged to attribute my name to Tony's post.

Oooh... the forum's doing its thing again. I definitely quoted Tony but the forum decided it would be better attributed to you

[cuthound]

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Oooh... the forum's doing its thing again. I definitely quoted Tony but the forum decided it would be better attributed to you

Weird,  well at least it attributed the right post to me this time.

I wonder if it ever allocates greenies to the wrong person? 

[Murflynn]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I fail I fail to see how a builder can forge his own HIN. The regs require tgevbuilder makes them up for himself, in whatever format he wishes IIRC, so how can the builder have issued a forged HIN on his RCD?

I don't think so.  

the RYA is the responsible body in the UK for this, they issue the HIN on request for a small fee, according to a code that identifies the country, builder, year, etc. and it is held on their database; it cannot be made up by the builder.  

if the OP contacts the RYA, they should be able to provide details related to his valid or invalid HIN.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

I don't think so.  

the RYA is the responsible body in the UK for this, they issue the HIN on request for a small fee, according to a code that identifies the country, builder, year, etc. and it is held on their database; it cannot be made up by the builder.  

if the OP contacts the RYA, they should be able to provide details related to his valid or invalid HIN.

 

Thats odd. I was sure when I investigated RCDing one of mine I would have been deemed to be taking on the role of "Builder" and responsible for assigning my own HIN. I decided mine was going to be "1".

But events overtook me and I sold the boat to a another bloke who wanted the boat and didn't care a stuff about RCD. There are a lot of us about! 

[cuthound]

28 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

I don't think so.  

the RYA is the responsible body in the UK for this, they issue the HIN on request for a small fee, according to a code that identifies the country, builder, year, etc. and it is held on their database; it cannot be made up by the builder.  

if the OP contacts the RYA, they should be able to provide details related to his valid or invalid HIN.

Doesn't the RYA own the format and maintain the database in Great Britain?

The builder has an RYA approved code to identify him uniquely, and then uses that code to prefix all boats built by him, supplying the RYA with boat build number, month of manufacture and year of completion when the boat is complete.

Otherwise how would the RYA know that detail? 

[john6767]

There is some info about the HIN here https://britishmarine.co.uk/Services/Business-Support/Technical-Support/Manufacturers-Identity-Code-MIC

the one thing that strikes me is that the only bit if that which is not really "made up" is the manufactures code which should be an actual registered 3 character code.  The serial number presumably can be anything, and I know on ours that part also indicates who did the fit-out, but that would be be the manufacturers choice I guess.  You can see from that page for a self build you would use RYA as the manufacturer, and get the serial number to use from them.

[HelloHello]

Just in contact with the RYA now, thanks for the tip!

[mrsmelly]

29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thats odd. I was sure when I investigated RCDing one of mine I would have been deemed to be taking on the role of "Builder" and responsible for assigning my own HIN. I decided mine was going to be "1".

But events overtook me and I sold the boat to a another bloke who wanted the boat and didn't care a stuff about RCD. There are a lot of us about! 

Completely agree. My last boat didnt have rcd and I didnt give a hoot I also sold it to a bloke who also didnt give a hoot for full market value. It counts for diddly squat to many of us but can be a good scaremongering tool against the uninitiated.

[Phil Ambrose]

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

Without a valid HIN number and RCD paperwork you won't be able to export the boat to another EU country, register it on the Small Ships Register or take out a marine mortgage on it. But you (or any future owner) can do pretty much anything else with it. Is that really going to be a problem for a 12 year old boat?

Are you right about the SSR? Our last boat was registered but had no HIN or RCD and we never had any issues at all when we sold it on brokerage.

Phil 

[arbutus]

Did the original builder complete the whole boat or did he just fabricate the shell and maybe fit the engine?

In 2007 I had a narrowboat shell built and the builder fitted an engine that I had purchased separately. I then paid boat fitters an hourly rate to fit out the boat.

I also used a surveyor to check the conformity of the whole build to the Recreational Craft Directive.

The shell builder provided an “Annex III(a) Declaration” for the work he had carried out.

In the document the shell was referred to by its yard number only.

I have no idea if, at this point I could have fitted out the boat without reference to the RCD and just made sure it would pass a boat safety inspection.

 

When the complete fit out was nearing completion, and as I was technically the builder of the whole boat, and as a private individual, I applied to the RYA for a CIN (Craft Identification Number) formally the HIN number and now called a WaterCraft Identification number.

I applied to the RYA for the number as “Vessels built for own use (DIY vessels) should apply to the Royal Yachting Association for a five digit number which is then used with the GB country code and MIC ‘RYA’.”

When the boat was completed a CE plate was fixed to the boat naming me as the builder and the CIN number stamped on the plate.

A boat manual was also produced which included wiring diagrams.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There is a whole load of half-correct information bandied about in pubs and brokers offices about RCD. The way to find out for sure what the rules are is to get a copy of the regulation and read it yourself. 

I did this when I bought my first non-RCD boat, and to summarise, only a boat less than five years old needs one. Once the five year deadline has passed then a boat may be sold without one. I'm shocked your broker is unaware of this. 

I downloaded the RCD regulation from the internet. Have a google and find it, and read it for yourself rather than relying on hearsay. 

I would suggest that if the boat was offered for sale without any RCD it would be fine, but to offer it for sale saying it is RCD compliant and registered as such, when it isn't would be wrong, maybe fraudulent saying something it isnt.

[Ex Brummie]

Have you asked for the observations of the broker you bought the boat from? If you have to sell at a reduction, maybe you can get compensation from them as they sold to you  misrepresented.

[HelloHello]

Hi there, thanks for the reply!

After speaking with about everyone and their Cat, this HIN isn't looking like too much of a problem.  The main issue in regards to the Broker selling her was interms of insurance, which is understandable, but I now have it in writing that this HIN number would not effect the boat being successfully insured by an insurer and a few other verbal confirmations from other insurance companies, making everyone involved happy, but we'll see tomorrow.

And from all the above feedback stating how a lot of others haven't found the abcense of this HIN a problem and looking at the official guidelines that the RCD/RYA offer it looks to be ok.

Not sure who are the guilty parties or who's wrong or right, but it seems to be ok.

Fingers crossed that no more hurdles have to be jumped over.

And thanks again to this forum, you really really have helped!

Regards,

Edited September 7, 2017 by HelloHello
Typo

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, HelloHello said:

Just in contact with the RYA now, thanks for the tip!

And did they say that they issue the HIN as claimed above (which I doubt) or did they say the builder issues it?