"Vintage Marine Engines for Narrow Boats"

[Mick in Bangkok]

Hi,

Having been recommended the book "Vintage Marine Engines for Narrow Boats" on another thread I have sent a couple of e mails over the past week to the recommended address kwhittle@btconnect.com but am not getting any replies.

Can anyone tell me if this address is still valid or if there is an alternative way of obtaining a copy.

Cheers Mick  

[rjasmith]

Mick,

Having got a phone no for Kevin Whittle and having not seen anything of him for a very long time I just picked up the phone and spoke to him a few mins ago!

He's still in the land of the living and has received your email - I gather he is, just now replying to you and presumably you will get your copy of his book.

Without wishing to start a great discussion on Vintage Engines and the EU, I'm not sure if you're thinking of buying a new boat with a vintage engine or trying to get a used one with a vintage engine in it already.

The latter option will be fine of course but since last January the new version of the RCD became mandatory and now makes fitting a new boat with a vintage engine rather difficult so if following this option you will need to check this out carefully. A recent article in Canal Boat magazine written with the help of Ross Wombwell (British Marine Technical Manager) has some details of this.

Richard  

 

 

 

[Mick in Bangkok]

Hi Richard,

Yes i have just received a reply from Kevin and am sorting out delivery of a copy.

I intend to look at boats with engines already installed and seeking to learn more about the available engines prior to entering the market.

Thanks for helping things along.

Mick

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, rjasmith said:

 

Without wishing to start a great discussion on Vintage Engines and the EU, I'm not sure if you're thinking of buying a new boat with a vintage engine or trying to get a used one with a vintage engine in it already.

The latter option will be fine of course but since last January the new version of the RCD became mandatory and now makes fitting a new boat with a vintage engine rather difficult so if following this option you will need to check this out carefully. A recent article in Canal Boat magazine written with the help of Ross Wombwell (British Marine Technical Manager) has some details of this.

Richard  

 

 

 

As I understand it, such an engine is allowed to be fitted into a "replica" of an old boat.

Define replica.....

[cuthound]

16 minutes ago, Athy said:

As I understand it, such an engine is allowed to be fitted into a "replica" of an old boat.

Define replica.....

And how old is old?

I can see a market for Bolinder powered Springer replicas opening up 

(spellchecker recommended "Boilerman" instead of Bolinder, hmm,  Mike the Bolinder anyone?)

Edited September 6, 2017 by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.

[Athy]

15 minutes ago, cuthound said:

And how old is old?

I can see a market for Bolinder powered Springer replicas opening up 

(spellchecker recommended "Boilerman" instead of Bolinder, hmm,  Mike the Bolinder anyone?)

Yes, I knew when I typed it that some clever sod perceptive and knowledgeable person would raise that point. It continues to baffle me that the term "vintage engine" is widely used and accepted, yet "vintage boat" is not. I suppose the best answer might be, a boat which is old enough, and of a suitable type, to have had this type of engine fitted as new.

 

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

Yes, I knew when I typed it that some clever sod perceptive and knowledgeable person would raise that point. It continues to baffle me that the term "vintage engine" is widely used and accepted, yet "vintage boat" is not. I suppose the best answer might be, a boat which is old enough, and of a suitable type, to have had this type of engine fitted as new.

 

Yes, I can see various Woolwich,  Northwich and other almost exact working boat replicas being built with rebuilt vintage engines, the soon aften launch, being recalled for a cabin to be fitted over the hold, with a top notch fit out following. 

[Athy]

We are on exactly the same hymn sheet here - that's what I meant when I asked, what is a replica? It is fairly common for a boat to be marketed as a "replica working boat" - and if the hull is by, for example, the Fullers then that hull may be as close as dammit to a 1930s original, but it will have a full cabin up top.

 

"Replica working boat, mate? So where do I put the 22 tons of coal?"

[MtB]

Point of Order...

Is compliance with RCD mandatory now then with a new self build boat? 

 

(Assuming no intention to sell within five years.)

[alan_fincher]

5 hours ago, rjasmith said:

Without wishing to start a great discussion on Vintage Engines and the EU, I'm not sure if you're thinking of buying a new boat with a vintage engine or trying to get a used one with a vintage engine in it already.

The latter option will be fine of course but since last January the new version of the RCD became mandatory and now makes fitting a new boat with a vintage engine rather difficult so if following this option you will need to check this out carefully. A recent article in Canal Boat magazine written with the help of Ross Wombwell (British Marine Technical Manager) has some details of this.

Without typing masses, or recreating the article, are you able to precis what is allowed, and what is not, please?

[stagedamager]

We are looking at building a knobstick replica........ It will have an old engine.... And be based around old knees...... So that's a replica surely!!

[David Mack]

38 minutes ago, stagedamager said:

We are looking at building a knobstick replica........ It will have an old engine.... And be based around old knees...... So that's a replica surely!!

Are those knobbly knees?

[zenataomm]

Or sticky out knees?

[stagedamager]

Knobbly knees....

And turned out toes.....

And a poisonous wart on the end of his nose.......

 

 

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, stagedamager said:

We are looking at building a knobstick replica........ It will have an old engine.... And be based around old knees...... So that's a replica surely!!

No, that will be a restoration surely. 

[stagedamager]

Nope! Restoration would be based on replacing one plank at a time from the formed hull....

We plan to replicate the knees and build with steel.....

But yes.... In the rcd case

... It's the same boat...

[rjasmith]

19 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Point of Order...

Is compliance with RCD mandatory now then with a new self build boat? 

 

(Assuming no intention to sell within five years.)

Mike, No this bit is still in there as before but the definition of "built by the owner for his own use" has had the word "predominantly" added in front of it! Mike Clarke in Belgium (the boat law expert I occasionally contact) interprets this as meaning that building from a bare hull is still OK but building from a sailaway might not be.

Ross Wombwell agrees and elaborates further on this in the Canal Boat article which was in the Sept 2017 issue. It should be available now in the Back Numbers section on the CB website for anyone who wants more detail. 

Strangely this earth shattering fact seems to be passing everyone by!

I wrote lots of stuff in various posts about the new RCD (now called RCD2) when it was originally approved back in 2013 but it didn't seem to cause much of a stir then either!

Richard

 

 

[rjasmith]

19 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Without typing masses, or recreating the article, are you able to precis what is allowed, and what is not, please?

Alan, I think the simple answer is "no not really" but I'll do my best! The CB article is in the Sept 2017 issue which anyone can read online by now if that helps. The article doesn't go into great detail about vintage engines other than to remind us that emissions limits were first introduced in the 2004 amendment to the old 1998 RCD (RCD1) but RCD2 has now introduced the tighter 2010 USA limits for boat engines.

It doesn't say that the difference between RCD1 and RCD2 is that a very significant but tiny clause in the 2004 RCD1 amendment put in by Mike Clarke (see post 17 above) was removed in RCD2 despite his strong protest to the (British) Rapporteur Malcolm Harbour. This clause specifically exempted from the requirement to meet the 2004 emissions limits any engine that had been built prior to 2005 (or 2006 - I can never remember which year it was!) This is what defines a "vintage or historic engine" in RCD1.

Under RCD1 there were complicated interpretations of which types of boat this could be applied to (ie historic boat, historic replica new boat, historic engine, historic replica engine etc) and to clarify it Mike Clarke produced an "emissions matrix" sheet which used to exist on the British Marine website but will undoubtedly have been taken down now. (I still have a copy).

With the removal of Mike's clause (RCD2 has repealed the old RCD1 and its 2004 amendment) the situation has radically changed and the simple case is now that all new build boats must be fitted with an emissions (2010 standard) compliant engine. I have no idea but perhaps there is still some room for manoeuvre via a different format of "emissions matrix" vis-a-vis new build historic replica boats plus of course if you build your own boat you can still do what you like and ignore RCD2 but not sell for 5 years.

Back in 2013 there were suggestions of a get around, often favoured in Holland apparently, that would get a new boat built commercially and fitted with a vintage engine. This was where the buyer would commission a boat fitted with a compliant engine at first. The sale would then proceed with full RCD legality but the boat would stay where it was at the yard while the compliant engine was removed and a non compliant "vintage" engine fitted to the customers choice! The boat was now no longer RCD compliant but was what the owner originally wanted and the engine change was simply a "repair" subsequent to the legal new boat sale!

If you read the CB article, Ross Wombwell clearly points out that RCD2 will no longer allow this as the engine change is classed as a "Major Craft Conversion" and it is a new responsibility for owners under RCD2 to have any such conversion rechecked for continued RCD2 compliance.  

This last show stopper hadn't previously occurred to me I have to say!

Of course none of this stuff applies to boats with existing old engines that were built, either prior to or during the RCD1 era (1998 to January 18 2017).

Not quite sure what happens if you change an engine in a previously RCD1 compliant boat for another non compliant engine from now on!!!!

Richard

 

 

 

 

   

 

[martyn 1]

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest because at this point in time I do not know of one of the hull builders we deal with on a regularly basis with who has stopped offering their boats with "vintage" engines, be that here or in the Netherlands. As far as I am aware none have had issues with the compliance at the end.  This is probably because in section one of the new RCD it still gives exemptions that can be used to get your old engine in your boat even if its not quite as easy as it used to be. If the boats is a "original historical watercraft and individual replicas thereof designed before 1950 built predominantly with the original materials and labelled as such by the manufacturer" or "watercraft built for own use, provided that such watercraft are not subsequently placed on the EU market for a period of five years beginning with the date on which the watercraft was put into service" then you can do what you like. So as long as you build you boat in one of the numbers of ways that satisfies these two exemptions then you can carry on regardless with the old engine.

[rjasmith]

Martyn,

Thanks for that, as I said, I thought the old "historic watercraft" stuff might still be helpful here but I don't think those clauses have changed significantly between RCD1 and RCD2. Without another careful study of Mike Clarke's "emissions matrix" sheet again I'm sure there were problems for fitting old engines in new narrow boats under RCD1 that caused him (together with 2 or 3 others) to invent his special clause and get it approved by both the EU Parliament and the Commission. He was even delighted when the Commission actually "improved" his words a bit! 

When I asked him specifically on this point back in 2013 he was adamant that with his clause removed the situation was radically changed and would be a significant problem for boat builders trying to fit old engines in new boats after RCD2 became mandatory.

It's good to hear you say that UK and Netherland boat builders still have no problems these days. Can you point us at any names of UK boat firms that you deal with that are still fitting old engines?

I suppose it's all down to whether a present day welded steel narrow boat with appropriate cabin shape configuration can be interpreted as an "original historic watercraft etc etc (words as above)".

Richard   

[martyn 1]

5 hours ago, rjasmith said:

Thanks for that, as I said, I thought the old "historic watercraft" stuff might still be helpful here but I don't think those clauses have changed significantly between RCD1 and RCD2. Without another careful study of Mike Clarke's "emissions matrix" sheet again I'm sure there were problems for fitting old engines in new narrow boats under RCD1 that caused him (together with 2 or 3 others) to invent his special clause and get it approved by both the EU Parliament and the Commission. He was even delighted when the Commission actually "improved" his words a bit! 

Hi Richard,

I can’t see the emission issue you are referring to here, in the following section of the 2017 RCD texted to the one I quoted earlier it states the below (trimmed down to cut out the stuff we are not discussing)

“ (2) The exhaust emission requirements set out in Part B of Schedule 1 do not apply to the following—

(a)propulsion engines installed or specifically intended for installation in the following products—

(b)original historical propulsion engines and individual replicas thereof, which are based on a pre-1950 design, not produced in series and fitted on watercraft referred to in paragraph 4(1)(e) or paragraph 4(1)(h) above;

(c)propulsion engines built for own use provided that such engines are not subsequently placed on the market for a period of five years beginning with the date on which the watercraft was put into service. “

With the references to paragraph 4(1)(e) or paragraph 4(1)(h) being the two “historic boat/replica” or “own use” clauses mentioned previously. So I would read this that if you are building a boat that fulfils one of the boat related clauses and the engine fulfils one of the (a) or (b) above, which many of the most common vintage engines (Gardner, Lister JP etc) easily do, then all is good by the letter of the RCD.  However onto your next few points where things get a bit more interesting.

5 hours ago, rjasmith said:

When I asked him specifically on this point back in 2013 he was adamant that with his clause removed the situation was radically changed and would be a significant problem for boat builders trying to fit old engines in new boats after RCD2 became mandatory.

It's good to hear you say that UK and Netherland boat builders still have no problems these days. Can you point us at any names of UK boat firms that you deal with that are still fitting old engines?

I suppose it's all down to whether a present day welded steel narrow boat with appropriate cabin shape configuration can be interpreted as an "original historic watercraft etc etc (words as above)".

Here I would have to agree if you make some assumptions on how the boat is purchased. For example if you are buying the complete package from a boatbuilder who is contracted for hull, engine and fitout. Then unless it is a full on replica with cargo hold etc (e.g. a working boat) even I would say you would be on thin ice in regards to "individual replicas thereof designed before 1950 built predominantly with the original materials and labelled as such by the manufacturer"   although you would probably be ok with welded construction, steel bottom etc as long as externally it was a true representation of an original. and using the "own use"  clause would be out of the question as it has not been built/project managed by the person who owns it.

Now having said that, there are many other ways to end up with your boat within the confines of the stated clauses if your willing to do a bit more work. Take the following scenario which see's some of the engines we do in new boats. This is now on the assumption the boat is being built to the "own use"  clause. The owner contracts the yard to supply the hull, but not engine. The yard builds the hull and this can be whatever the owner likes it doesnt have to be a replica and once complete it is certified as compliant to the relavent parts of the RCD, which it is and at this point that transaction is done.

This is where the "own use"  comes in. The owner in the mean time purchases the engine and if competent fits it or contracts someone else to fit it not the hullbuilder  (Engine 'ole has already built to take it as this wouldnt affect the RCD compliance of the hull) along with the fitout being completed by the owner or separate contrators. Because the boat has either majoritively been fitted out by the owner or project managed at least by them it can fairly safely fall into the "own use"  with the slight inconvenience that to remain compliant you have to keep it 5 years.

Even long before the RCD changes this tended to be the scenario for most of the boats our engines ended up in. Yes in some cases before the changes the hull builder would be doing the whole lot but very rarely was the transaction for the engine done between us and the yard, in 99% of cases it was with the owner.

So it can still be done within the confines of the 2017 RCD but it isnt as easy as it used to be. By my interpretation of the 2017 RCD you can no longer go to your chosen boatbuilder and ask for the finished article with an old engine in. You can however ask for the hull to be built to take this old engine which you already have/will have (and if you dont im sure they would point you in the direction of someone who can help) and then sort the fitout separatly. All of this can in most cases still be done in one location as alot of the yards use external guys to do the fitouts anyway so you just sort the paperwork instead of the hull builder.   

Edited September 7, 2017 by martyn 1

[RLWP]

On 9/6/2017 at 20:35, stagedamager said:

Knobbly knees....

And turned out toes.....

And a poisonous wart on the end of his nose.......

You've worked on too many pantos

Richard

[stagedamager]

Where are you meeting him...

Here by this stream.

..and his favourite food is owl ice cream.....

[RLWP]

I read different books to my kids

.. The great, grey-green greasy Limpopo river, all set around with fever trees

Richard

[stagedamager]

Another good one!