Electric set up advice

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

While looking at generators bear in mind we are talking about proper marine units not something designed for use on a building site. Those would be noisy and then some.

Peppers:

A 'proper' marine generator will be quiet and 'solve all of your electrical (potential) problems', you can even have it connected up so it automatically senses when the batteries need charging, switches on, charges the batteries and then switches off - "newbie-proof".

 

Downside is cost - installed it will come out at between £7000 and £10000.

[nb Innisfree]

Biggest prob for the OP is not having enough knowledge to decide whose advice to take.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

Biggest prob for the OP is not having enough knowledge to decide whose advice to take.

Reading OP's posts I suspect they're canny enough to know

[Tony Brooks]

Lost a load - will repost

Edited September 2, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Reading OP's posts I suspect they're canny enough to know

I am not so sure because that power audit looks very suspect to me. I would like to see the basic data  he entered and where he got it from. I suspect there are errors there and maybe Bimble has made it worse. Bimble want to supply solar and batteries where as I am far more concerned about keeping the batteries well charged for the optimum cost.

Lets pick the power audit apart.

I have already mentioned I suspect the laptop figures are too high but as I do not have the OPs laptops to check they may not be. Even it they are correct it likely to be the maximum power, not the average. A change from a spinning hard disc to a solid state one should reduce the power demand. The maximum power is Ilkley to only be drawn during start up and other processor & disc intensive operations.

Printers. My HP inkjet/multifunction device draws 600 Ma AC. That's 6 amps @ 12v so for half an hours use that's 30 Ah, not 40.

Speakers. What type of speaker that is likely to be used on a boat draws almost half a kW each? I bet that,s the PMP or RMS music figure and not the actual draw. AS there is no mention of a radio or music system I suspect they link to the TV so I doubt they draw more than an few amps.

Again, I have questioned the two hours of toilet FLUSHING as opposed to just sitting on it. At 320 Watts it may eb a heated composting bog but I rather doubt it, more Ilkley a maccerator so will only draw current when  actually flushing..

Fridge. This one is the other way round.  Just over 30 Ah looks rather on the low side to me.

Bread maker. I very much doubt that 615 watts is the average current during a cooking cycle.  suspect its the maximum that will only be drawn when cooking. All the time its mixing, kneading and proving it is likely to be far less than this. Anyway although some think its nice to have not exactly vital.

Camera charger. Is one hour to fully recharge it realistic?

I am still wondering why the OP wants to light his boat up like a Christmas tree or Blackpool illuminations. How many of us have 20 lamps on all the time?

I know its better to overestimate then under but I am sceptical about the Bimble calculations.

[Peppers]

I am somewhat overwhelmed with good advice, yes @nb Innisfree - but I totally trust that @Tony Brooks, @WotEver and others are posting impartial and vital knowledge, so I'm genuinely grateful for it. I have many many many times said I have absolutely no idea what I'm on about in terms of electrics (and so many other things). But I do know what I need to function my working life, so forgive me for ignoring the "its not a flat" comments. 

However...some responses in relation to my audit below. 

43 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am not so sure because that power audit looks very suspect to me. I would like to see the basic data  she entered and where she got it from. I suspect there are errors there and maybe Bimble has made it worse. Bimble want to supply solar and batteries where as I am far more concerned about keeping the batteries well charged for the optimum cost.

Happy to admit it's probably all totally wrong. I didn't necessarily know what I was looking for.

Lets pick the power audit apart.

I have already mentioned I suspect the laptop figures are too high but as I do not have the OPs laptops to check they may not be. Even it they are correct it likely to be the maximum power, not the average. A change from a spinning hard disc to a solid state one should reduce the power demand. The maximum power is Ilkley to only be drawn during start up and other processor & disc intensive operations.

We're using 2 macbook pro's, potentially a mac mini + screen or iMac from time to time - all vital for work use. Daily it will be the MacBooks.

Printers. My HP inkjet/multifunction device draws 600 Ma AC. That's 6 amps @ 12v so for half an hours use that's 30 Ah, not 40.

I won't use this everyday, or even every week it was just a way of including the figure, but it's a Samsung laser, and I found on their website the 80amph figure, but yes could well be wrong.

Speakers. What type of speaker that is likely to be used on a boat draws almost half a kW each? I bet that,s the PMP or RMS music figure and not the actual draw. AS there is no mention of a radio or music system I suspect they link to the TV so I doubt they draw more than an few amps.

My partner is a composer so his speakers are heavy duty and connect to the MacBooks/ipad/phone. He would have more if he could! We don't have a TV. Or washing machine, or dishwasher, or hoover, or iron for that matter and haven't for years so probably won't eventually feel the need here either.

Again, I have questioned the two hours of toilet FLUSHING as opposed to just sitting on it. At 320 Watts it may eb a heated composting bog but I rather doubt it, more Ilkley a maccerator so will only draw current when  actually flushing..

We're having an incinerator toilet fitted by Andy from Fernwood Boats, but yes this figure could well be wrong. 

Fridge. This one is the other way round.  Just over 30 Ah looks rather on the low side to me.

Took that figure from someone else's power audit actually, so again could be wrong.

Bread maker. I very much doubt that 615 watts is the average current during a cooking cycle.  suspect its the maximum that will only be drawn when cooking. All the time its mixing, kneading and proving it is likely to be far less than this. Anyway although some think its nice to have not exactly vital.

I only use this about once a month when I run a volunteer arts workshop with a group of kids who bake items into the bread. I don't use it for cooking, so it doesn't really matter if it's nice, it's been part of a work thing I've done for a long time. If it is possible (which I believe it is from seeing what others have on their boats) then I'd be glad to have. 

Camera charger. Is one hour to fully recharge it realistic?

I'm a photographer, and yes generally its a 1 hour charge every few days per battery. 

I am still wondering why the OP wants to light his boat up like a Christmas tree or Blackpool illuminations. How many of us have 20 lamps on all the time?

I just found this a difficult one to quantify so went high - thinking winter day - me working in one room, other half working in another. 20 is high, but better that than low was my assumption. 

I know its better to overestimate then under but I am sceptical about the Bimble calculations.

and

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A 'proper' marine generator will be quiet and 'solve all of your electrical (potential) problems', you can even have it connected up so it automatically senses when the batteries need charging, switches on, charges the batteries and then switches off - "newbie-proof".

Downside is cost - installed it will come out at between £7000 and £10000.

Ouch! I don't think I have that much for a generator  - what do I do?! Will it be a totally impossible feat to just charge batteries via the engine (and solar in the summer)..?

[Iain_S]

On 9/1/2017 at 12:37, OldGoat said:

1. Not enough batteries - re-read what Tony Brooks wrote

2. Surely you don't need a smartgauge AND a BMV? Both are monitors It's an either / or situation. I'd still stick with a Battery Management device  for those days when the solar controller doesn't work.

 

As others have said, the two instruments compliment each other. The advantage of something like a BMV over a simple ammeter is that it will give a reading of AmpereHours out, which, when compared with Smartgauge, gives a reasonable accurate (and quick) measurement of the total capacity of the battery bank, which will decline over time as the batteries age. 

Kelpie has Smartgauge (fitted by me) and a Merlin Powergauge. On the Powergauge, the only readings I look at are the ammeter and AmpHours out. The voltage measurements correspond with the Smartgauge ones, and I ignore the %charged on the Powergauge, unless I'm fiddling with it in an attempt to set it up accurately 

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, Peppers said:

 

Ouch! I don't think I have that much for a generator  - what do I do?! Will it be a totally impossible feat to just charge batteries via the engine (and solar in the summer)..?

You can charge off the engine / alternator but with your proposed usage you will be running a 'big' engine for several hours every day (maybe 6+ hours every day). You will add hours to the engine + fuel costs, you will need to service the engine (oil, filters, etc) every so many hours (maybe 100 hours, maybe 200 hours depending on make / model) it is all extra cost but in dribs and drabs rather than £1000s up front.

You can use a small 'suitcase' type generator (something like a Honda 2kw is usual) that will be between £1000 (second hand) to £2000 (new).

You then have the problems (safety regulations) of storing petrol on board, and the problem of actually sourcing petrol as it is not generally available on the canals so you have to walk into the nearest 'town' to find a petrol station.

Do NOT be tempted to get a 'builders' type generator they are really REALLY noisy and you will seriously regret it - you may even find that it 'accidently' falls into the canal if you are mooring within a mile of anyone else.

 

You either adapt your lifestyle to suit your electrical supply, or adapt your electrical supply to suit your needs - unfortunately the second option costs money - so :

Option 1 ) Run your engine 6 hours (guesstimate) per day, adding wear & tear to the engine requiring servicing more frequently and using fuel. large battery bank (1000 Ah) needed

Option 2 ) Buy a petrol generator, source petrol daily (by law you can only keep - I think it is - 20 litres on board in cans) Cost £1000-£2000 + Fuel gives 7 amps of electricity supply.

Option 3 ) Buy a 'plumbed in diesel generator' cost £7000-£10000 gives almost 'unlimited' electric supply.

 

Have someone help you with a proper electrical audit and ensure that the 'watts' you use are all 'input' watts and not 'output' watts (ie what is known as an 800w microwave will actually have an input requiring up to 1600 watts)

Incinerator toilet on a boat should ONLY be gas powered - never electric powered. Did you ever wonder why 99.9999% of boats don't have one.

Why not have a 'proper' toilet like the majority of boaters ?

You need to plan the boat systems around 'winter usage; when solar is producing virtually nothing - then when summer does come you can cut down on the other sources of electrical generation and save the fuel they would have used.

[WotEver]

57 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Will it be a totally impossible feat to just charge batteries via the engine (and solar in the summer)..?

Alan said it all in the above post. Realistically, with your current power audit, yes it'll be just about impossible. 

[Tony Brooks]

Quote Peppers

"Speakers. What type of speaker that is likely to be used on a boat draws almost half a kW each? I bet that,s the PMP or RMS music figure and not the actual draw. AS there is no mention of a radio or music system I suspect they link to the TV so I doubt they draw more than an few amps.

My partner is a composer so his speakers are heavy duty and connect to the MacBooks/ipad/phone. He would have more if he could! We don't have a TV. Or washing machine, or dishwasher, or hoover, or iron for that matter and haven't for years so probably won't eventually feel the need here either."

I still find it hard to believe they draw almost half a kW each - taken both together that's a small electric fire's consumption.  My son has a five piece band and their full PA including monitors draws far less than that. It works perfectly happily on a 13 amp plug. Please check where that figure came from. I still think its PMP or RMS music power. look for the electrical figures plate on the back.

Quote Pepper

" We're having an incinerator toilet fitted by Andy from Fernwood Boats, but yes this figure could well be wrong."

Ah well if Fernwood think its a good idea to use onboard electricity to produce heat then it must be. The likes of Gibbo (Chris Gibson who knows more about batteries on boats than probably anyone else in the country) who said using electricity to produce heat is a very bad idea. Actually what he said was rather stronger! This is a very new technology on boats and far from well proven. It will be more expensive to have a holding tank fitted a few years down the line when the snags become apparent the than having it fitted now. There is at least on recent thread on incinerator toilets. Do they boil the liquid waste, if not how do you dispose of it? If its down an Elasn disposal you might just as  well have a cassette toilet at far less cost and probably greater reliability.

You are correct that it is better to over estimate but over estimating too much brings disproportional expense.

If all those figures are correct and you do not intend to modify your lifestyle to suit onboard electricity demands then I suggest that you put off buying the boat until you have enough for that generator.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[nb Innisfree]

Info for OP:

Innisfree's daily consumption was approx 1.5kwh and 2 to 2.5 kwh on a heavy day when doing a wash with a Bosch auto w/m. Various 240v appliances including a Tefal Quickcup, TV, Food mixer, 240v lighting and power tools. Shoreline fridge used 16ah @24. All supplied by a Victron 3kw Multiplus, 8x120ah AGM's and 100 amp 24v alternator. After some experimenting I eventually settled on a daily 2 hour (ish) charge from the alternator and a weekly (ish) 8 hr absorption charge with a Kipor genny via Multiplus. No solar.

Worked a treat 24/7 full time retired liveaboard ccing for the two of us.

ETA: +daily use of 240v vacuum cleaner

Oh and a 7kw Mikuni. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by nb Innisfree

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Info for OP:

Innisfree's daily consumption was approx 1.5kwh and 2 to 2.5 kwh on a heavy day when doing a wash with a Bosch auto w/m. Various 240v appliances including a Tefal Quickcup, TV, Food mixer, 240v lighting and power tools. Shoreline fridge used 16ah @24. All supplied by a Victron 3kw Multiplus, 8x120ah AGM's and 100 amp 24v alternator. After some experimenting I eventually settled on a daily 2 hour (ish) charge from the alternator and a weekly (ish) 8 hr absorption charge with a Kipor genny via Multiplus. No solar.

Worked a treat 24/7 full time retired liveaboard ccing for the two of us.

ETA: +daily use of 240v vacuum cleaner. 

1.5Kwh is not an unusually high figure (call it 150Ah per day). I am a fairly 'light user' and top 100Ah most days.

The OPs audit shows an expected usage of 5.5Kwh (3 times your daily usage, and 2x your 'heavy days')

[Tony Brooks]

Note - that is all at 24 volts so all Amps and Ah need doubling for 12V

[Peppers]

I think we can all agree that my audit was very wrong though. As you said @Alan de Enfield, I clearly need help with that, I just didn't know where to go for that. 

Just an added note about the toilet, it does use gas, not electrics to heat it. Apparently electrics are only for the fan. Yet again, obviously my numbers are wrong. 

[ditchcrawler]

Sorry I can't go through it all but we have a bread maker and make bread every 3 days. the heat cycle is only about an hour and then its not on full wack all the time. The longest time of the cycle is proving and mixing, the mixing bit is probably not more than 10 minutes. The load during this time is not that great.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Note - that is all at 24 volts so all Amps and Ah need doubling for 12V

But 1.5Kwh is still 1.5Kwh at either 24v or 12v.

It will still be 'only' 150Ah at 12v.

[nb Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

1.5Kwh is not an unusually high figure (call it 150Ah per day). I am a fairly 'light user' and top 100Ah most days.

The OPs audit shows an expected usage of 5.5Kwh (3 times your daily usage, and 2x your 'heavy days')

Fair enough but I suspect 5.5kwh is pessimistic (or should that be optimistic?)

When I designed our electric setup I tried various power audits and came up with conflicting results, instead I followed Tony Booth's figure of 125 - to 175 ah (12v) for an average narrowboat which turned out to be about right.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, nb Innisfree said:

 

When I designed our electric setup I tried various power audits and came up with conflicting results, instead I followed Tony Booth's figure of 125 - to 175 ah (12v) for an average narrowboat which turned out to be about right.

Indeed it was;

I would suggest that a 'normal figure' would be 100-150 but I'm not going to argue over '1/2 a fridge'.

You can happily claim to be 'average'.

[ditchcrawler]

We use between 30 and 40 Ah at 24 volts in 18-19 hours, the engine runs the other 4 or 5 hrs, for that we boil the kettle for tea and also the coffee machine in the evening, the laptop is normally on the mains so not charging just what its using, lights are LEDs TV is mains as it the fridge, the fridge doesn't get turned off at night and the inverter runs 24/7. While the engine is running we use the bread maker and also an electric mini oven grill thing. Diana also does the vacuuming while we travel. When I start the engine in the morning the voltage is normally around 25 volts

[nb Innisfree]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Indeed it was;

I would suggest that a 'normal figure' would be 100-150 but I'm not going to argue over '1/2 a fridge'.

You can happily claim to be 'average'.

My consumption estimate came from a BMV amp hour count btw, just how accurate that was I have no idea but much more accurate than doing a power audit which involves lots of educated guessing.

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

We use between 30 and 40 Ah at 24 volts in 18-19 hours, the engine runs the other 4 or 5 hrs, for that we boil the kettle for tea and also the coffee machine in the evening, the laptop is normally on the mains so not charging just what its using, lights are LEDs TV is mains as it the fridge, the fridge doesn't get turned off at night and the inverter runs 24/7. While the engine is running we use the bread maker and also an electric mini oven grill thing. Diana also does the vacuuming while we travel. When I start the engine in the morning the voltage is normally around 25 volts

How did you arrive at 30-40 ah? Seems very low to me.

Sorry just spotted your 4-5 hrs engine run.

Edited September 2, 2017 by nb Innisfree

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

My consumption estimate came from a BMV amp hour count btw, just how accurate that was I have no idea but much more accurate than doing a power audit which involves lots of educated guessing.

How did you arrive at 30-40 ah? Seems very low to me.

Sorry just spotted your 4-5 hrs engine run.

Again from an ah counter, Sterling. That is also where the voltage reading comes from. as it also reads amps I know when they are sort of full.

[nb Innisfree]

44 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Again from an ah counter, Sterling. That is also where the voltage reading comes from. as it also reads amps I know when they are sort of full.

30-40ah over 18-19 hours + consumption over 4-5 hours probably results in a figure of 1.5ish kwh?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Peppers said:

Just an added note about the toilet, it does use gas, not electrics to heat it. Apparently electrics are only for the fan. Yet again, obviously my numbers are wrong. 

Just in case it is not 'too late' there was a thread recently which discussed these 'gas' toilets - If I remember the figures showed that (depending on usage) they would use a 13kg bottle of gas per week (ie about £27-£30 per week)

Plus you will still be using 'an unnecessary amount' (4 amps = 48Ah per day) of 'lecky.

Do you really want one of these ? purchase price £5000 ? + installation cost + £1500 per year in gas alone is a lot of money that could be usefully spent on a generator.

You could have a cassette system (cost under £500) which has 'free disposal' of the contents.

You could have a 'pump-out system' (maybe £1000+ to install) with a cost of £15-£20 per 8 weeks (or more depending on size) to have someone remove the 'contents' for you.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

I have just seen the OP was on about these toilets in another thread. If I had realised that before I would not have got involved. It looks too much like yet another I want a floating cottage without making adjustments type scenario to me.

[Alan de Enfield]

Apparently it burns for 10 minutes, and uses 110g of gas for evaporating a 'No1', and a 20 minute burn for drying out 'No2s'

If you take an 'optimistic' number of flushes (No1s at 5 per person per day and one No2 per day) that equates to some 760g of gas per person, per day.

So a 'couple' will use some 1.5kg per day. A 13kg gas bottle will last about 8-9 days.

Get a touch of 'Delhi-Belly' and you have 'trouble'.

 

Hopefully you are building a large enough gas locker to store 4 or 5 gas bottles (don't forget cooking as well - & what fuel are you using for central heating ?) or you will be busy looking for places to sell you gas bottles every week instead of 'cruising'.