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Peppers

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Seems to me that one answer , or partial answer could be (& IMO should be ) to just simply " need " less stuff . I suspect there are many options for simply cutting down ones consumption of power - all this 21st century neediness is wearying . If u wanna live on a boat you have to accept first & foremost that ..... its a ...... boat . Its not a flat & if u want it to function like then you are likely to be looking at spending a huge sum of money to set up whats needed . 

For a start youre likely to need as big a solar set up as you can fit . You will almost definately need a big built in generator . These will go most of the way to cover your power requirements . As has been said by those far more techy than myself - quite simply , if u dont put back into batteries more than u take out then youre going to be fitting new batteries on a fairly regular basis . An expensive  chore especially in winter when trudging back and forth along muddy towpaths . 

Another way to minimise your impact on your batteries is to cut back your needs . " worktop appliances" . What on earth does that actually mean ? On my boat a can opener is a gadget . A " worktop appliance " is a dish drainer . I do have a breadmaker though . Its called an oven . I think you need to reassess your needs .... quickly . Its likely you really don t need the gadgets you think you do . Deciding u dont need them isn t " going without " - its embracing an entirely different way of life , which requires a diffrent way of thinking . If you get into this train of thought then being conscious of power usage becomes semi automatic . 

Personally , & it may sound a little harsh - apologies , i think that unless you spend alot of money on " battery charging equipment " and spend alot of time thinking about " power cutbacks " you are heading for a difficult time onboard . 

cheers

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1 hour ago, Peppers said:

Wow, you've made this so much clearer for me, thank you so so much. I've just spoken to the other half about diesel generators and we think we will definitely go down this route. If it looks to be too much for our budget for now, it will become our Christmas present to ourselves later in the year! I'll start looking into these this afternoon, but for now, as for the rest of my "shopping list", how does this sound based on the wonderful advice you've all given so far. 

4 x 160amp batteries: http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/leoch-160ah-agm-leisure-battery/

Victron 3000w inverter: https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/vv-015.aspx

Smartgauge: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/smartgauge.html

Battery monitor: http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/victron-bmv-700-multi-function-battery-monitor-1-batterybank.html

One of these as it comes with the MPPT controller: http://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/12v/260W-kit-mppt-mounting?sort=p.price&order=ASC&limit=75 - then I'm going to speak to bimble about 5 other solar panels that I could get, and how many controllers I would then need.

1. Not enough batteries - re-read what Tony Brooks wrote

2. Surely you don't need a smartgauge AND a BMV? Both are monitors It's an either / or situation. I'd still stick with a Battery Management device  for those days when the solar controller doesn't work.

 

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7 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

1. Not enough batteries - re-read what Tony Brooks wrote

2. Surely you don't need a smartgauge AND a BMV? Both are monitors It's an either / or situation. I'd still stick with a Battery Management device  for those days when the solar controller doesn't work.

 

Apologies - I'd understand @Tony Brooks to be saying I needed to cover 465amp hours and thought that would be covered by 640amp worth of batteries. Sorry, I really am tediously slow with this stuff.

And I've also misunderstood something about the ammeter, thinking the BMV was an ammeter. Would someone mind sending me an example of an ammeter that might complement the smartgauge. Again, apologies :/

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2 hours ago, chubby said:

Seems to me that one answer , or partial answer could be (& IMO should be ) to just simply " need " less stuff . I suspect there are many options for simply cutting down ones consumption of power - all this 21st century neediness is wearying . If u wanna live on a boat you have to accept first & foremost that ..... its a ...... boat . Its not a flat & if u want it to function like then you are likely to be looking at spending a huge sum of money to set up whats needed . 

For a start youre likely to need as big a solar set up as you can fit . You will almost definately need a big built in generator . These will go most of the way to cover your power requirements . As has been said by those far more techy than myself - quite simply , if u dont put back into batteries more than u take out then youre going to be fitting new batteries on a fairly regular basis . An expensive  chore especially in winter when trudging back and forth along muddy towpaths . 

Another way to minimise your impact on your batteries is to cut back your needs . " worktop appliances" . What on earth does that actually mean ? On my boat a can opener is a gadget . A " worktop appliance " is a dish drainer . I do have a breadmaker though . Its called an oven . I think you need to reassess your needs .... quickly . Its likely you really don t need the gadgets you think you do . Deciding u dont need them isn t " going without " - its embracing an entirely different way of life , which requires a diffrent way of thinking . If you get into this train of thought then being conscious of power usage becomes semi automatic . 

Personally , & it may sound a little harsh - apologies , i think that unless you spend alot of money on " battery charging equipment " and spend alot of time thinking about " power cutbacks " you are heading for a difficult time onboard . 

cheers

Very good post. I started out nearly 20 years ago on a 45ft Springer with a hand crank lister/petter engine without any alternator, a single battery, no inverter, a tiny 12v B&W TV and 12v car stereo. So when I bought my widebeam in 2005, the power reduction/conservation philosophy was already firmly ingrained in my mind. Although I have a washing machine which I can run from a generator, my electrical systems are modest and my battery bank is relatively small.

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44 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Apologies - I'd understand @Tony Brooks to be saying I needed to cover 465amp hours and thought that would be covered by 640amp worth of batteries. Sorry, I really am tediously slow with this stuff.

And I've also misunderstood something about the ammeter, thinking the BMV was an ammeter. Would someone mind sending me an example of an ammeter that might complement the smartgauge. Again, apologies :/

No Tony said

Quote

Your Bimble calculations taken at face value give a daily consumption of  465 Ah @ 12V. For optimum life you should not discharge most battery types below 50% on a regular basis so that implies a battery bank size of 930 amp hours - rather more than 4 x 110 Ah batteries - that is if your figures are accurate. I would want to see the amps drawn @12V instead of watts. Mains  appliances need their wattages divided by 10, not 12 to take inverter inefficiency into account. The bank size may end up larger if Bimble have not taken inverter inefficiency into account.

So you need a minimum of 930 amp hours. ie 2 x 465.  I would think a 2.5x - 3x better a better bet.

Typical Ammeter here

http://www.cactusnav.com/nasa-clipper-battery-monitor-p-12652.html

 

Edited by croftie
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42 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Apologies - I'd understand @Tony Brooks to be saying I needed to cover 465amp hours and thought that would be covered by 640amp worth of batteries. Sorry, I really am tediously slow with this stuff.

And I've also misunderstood something about the ammeter, thinking the BMV was an ammeter. Would someone mind sending me an example of an ammeter that might complement the smartgauge. Again, apologies :/

Any of the shunt-type monitors would compliment a Smartgauge. I have a BEP DC Meter which shows amps in/out on the domestic batteries and volts on domestics, start and bow thruster batteries. I don't bother with State of Charge (domestics) on the BEP monitor, I use the Smartgage for that. Mine is an older version of this one. http://www.bepmarine.com/en/80-600-0027-00

I only have a 450 amp/hour battery bank on my boat, but my electrical demands are low..

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1 hour ago, Peppers said:

Apologies - I'd understand @Tony Brooks to be saying I needed to cover 465amp hours and thought that would be covered by 640amp worth of batteries. Sorry, I really am tediously slow with this stuff.

And I've also misunderstood something about the ammeter, thinking the BMV was an ammeter. Would someone mind sending me an example of an ammeter that might complement the smartgauge. Again, apologies :/

There's absolutely no need to apologise (though gratefully received) - we're here to help as best we can!

Batteries and how to look after them is an emotive subject and there are as many opinions as there are respondents to a thread. Putting all the calculations aside for a moment, look at it this way - would you prefer to have sufficient capacity to have something reasonable in reserve so that when the sun doesn't shine or you don't want to run the engine that day or the next, you have something in reserve to let you do precisely that? In addition your battery bank is less stressed and may well last longer.

I'm lost about the ammeter - both the BMV and  the  Clipper do the same job as the smartguage  except that they do their calculations by using an ammeter function to help whereas the smart- does that calculation via some clever mathematics. The downside is that you don't get a readout of power consumed / refreshed. So perhaps you don't need both.   I'd choose the BMV or the Clipper. The latter has a larger display....

I'm still bothered about a battery management device. Rather than just charging the batteries until they're full, such a device as Adverc varies the charge with  rest periods and equalization charge regimes which I think is better. Have a look at the Adverc site and read the blurb. It may be duplicating what the solar controller does but the sun isn't that reliable.

 

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2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Surely you don't need a smartgauge AND a BMV?

Why do you say this? In my opinion they are the perfect pairing. With the two of them you can...

  • Know when to start charging (or at least, stop discharging). 
  • Know when you can stop charging. 
  • Accurately measure the battery capacity. 

You can't easily do all 3 with anything else without a lot of experience and, in the case of the third item, a lot of time. 

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From my experience of living on a similar sized boat (60 x 14) and probably similar or slightly less electrical consumption. It is fairly easy to get by in the summer, we have 580W solar and run our genny for about an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. We are all electric so need genny for cooking and plan to use other electrical appliances whilst cooking ie dishwasher, washing machine etc. Our 3000W inverter is also our battery charger so as a byproduct our batteries are usually well in excess of 80% SOC by the time we stop the genny. 

BUT as others have said if you wish to have that much power available you really need big battery bank and genny. We have 1500AH at 12V batteries (7 x 214AH AGM's) and a 14KVA diesel genny. Even with that bank I rarely run 2KW loads without genny running.

In the winter we take a mooring with hook up. If not we would have to run the genny a lot more and ours requires oil and filters every 100hrs so that could be twice a month.

Also worth considering in my opinion is going 24V or even 48V battery bank (save on copper)

Having capability for 32A hook up

Have high power and low power circuits, so high load appliances only operate when genny is running or hooked up.

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32 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

both the BMV and  the  Clipper do the same job as the smartguage

No they don't. 

For a start, they measure entirely different things. Both of them would complement a SmartGauge however. 

Edited by WotEver
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2 hours ago, croftie said:

So you need a minimum of 930 amp hours. ie 2 x 465.  I would think a 2.5x - 3x better a better bet.

Ah! Yes! Penny starting to really thud the ground now!

I might think then more like 4 or 5 of these: http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/leoch-250ah-agm-leisure-battery/

1 hour ago, Bricksh said:

Our 3000W inverter is also our battery charger so as a byproduct our batteries are usually well in excess of 80% SOC by the time we stop the genny. 

And I didn't realise an inverter could also be a battery charger?! I thought inverters used up battery energy...which inverter is that? Or is that just when using the genny?

 

I'm looking into travelpowers at the moment...

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You are correct but you can get a combi unit which contains an inverter and charger in the same box, which manages itself, but this can also be a bad thing as if you loose shore power the unit will seamlessly switch from charging to inverting and obviously your batteries are now discharging.

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14 minutes ago, Peppers said:

 

And I didn't realise an inverter could also be a battery charger?! I thought inverters used up battery energy...which inverter is that? Or is that just when using the genny?

 

Inverter and battery charger in one.

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/category/1341/product/vv-006.aspx

That is a 12v 3000w inverter and a 120amp charger in one unit. Not a lot more expensive than the inverter you quoted

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5 minutes ago, Peppers said:

 

And am I right in assuming that battery charger/inverter would be better for me? I hadn't even thought about what a battery charger was in this scenario before now...

Certainly could be. With 1000+ amp battery storage you are going to need serious charging off either shoreline or genny. You certainly not going to get that sort of capacity from the couple of hundred pounds saved by just buying the inverter you quoted. Also you will be saving space and less battery cables.

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To emphaasize what the other Tony (WotEver) and myself have been saying and to inform Old G. Both WotEver and myself plus a few others could use the Amp-hour counting monitors to tell when its important so stop discharging batteries and start charging them and when its time to stop engine charging them but we would be doing by the Volts and Amps reading and experience. It will also give a fairly reliable indication when a charging fault or battery faults are developing. However I have been in autoelectrical and similar fields for near 60 years and I suspect the other Tony has similar experience. We know that the typical boater, let alone new boaters can not do that so to make life simpler for them and to hold their hand while learning we both recommend the Smartguage to tell you when you need to stop discharging and start charging. A simple accurate digital ammeter will tell you when to stop engine/generator charging as will the Amps scale of the NASSA/Victron type battery monitors.

However those monitors have a very bad habit of persuading uninformed boaters to destroy their batteries by over reporting the state of charge because ordinary folk have no idea of how to set them up correctly or the true battery bank capacity that gradually reduces over time. This is why any accurate ammeter plus a Smartguage are recommended.

 

Back to batteries. You are unlike to get on top of charging and battery maintenance within your first year at least. This means that you are likely to destroy expensive batteries nearly as fast as cheaper ones. Take that and the weight of the batteries you linked to and I feel you may do better to plan so you can fit 2V cells or true deep cycle batteries in the future but start off with cheap  flooded open cells that you can top up and charge at 14.8 volts  and occasionally higher voltage for a while. This view is not held by all here. My own boat with 12V electric fridge, 150 watt MSW inverter for portable equipment charging, water pump, low current central heating pump (1 Amp when running),  small 12V TV, car radio,  maximum of 4 lamps on at the same time, and a 12V laptop adapter gets by perfectly well on 1 x 70 amp alternator, 160 watts solar, and 3 x 110 Ah Exide "leisure" batterers that are now in their fourth year. However w do not live aboard and many would say I have a battery monitoring and charging fetish.

If you go for a generator or a shoreline a battery charger or inverter/charger gives the quietes way of charging batteries, especially if the generator is on baking bread or running computers  at the same time.

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@Tony Brooks - I completely want the option that is best for the learners and the uninformed, so having both an ammeter and a smartguage sounds like the best option for me. I'm going to purchase those two things now so they are off my shopping list!

As for batteries, I'm worried that being a newbie I won't top them up right. Is there any such thing as cheap sealed batteries? You are totally right, we will probably ruin them fairly quickly as we "learn" 

 

 

Also, do you only get an inverter/charger if you're getting a generator. As I say I'm looking into the gennies now, but I'm just asking so I understand.

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4 minutes ago, Peppers said:

do you only get an inverter/charger if you're getting a generator. As I say I'm looking into the gennies now, but I'm just asking so I understand.

Unless you have access to shore power (which you say you won't) then yes :)

The generator makes mains electric. The charger uses this mains electric to charge the batteries. If you have a nice big on board generator it's less hassle, runs on diesel, and is quiet. It will also run all your other mains stuff when it's running so that you're not hammering your batteries. The only downside is that it uses fuel, but it does so far more efficiently than running your engine purely to charge your batteries. In the summer you won't need it as much because of solar, particularly if you have a large array. 

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8 hours ago, chubby said:

Seems to me that one answer , or partial answer could be (& IMO should be ) to just simply " need " less stuff . I suspect there are many options for simply cutting down ones consumption of power - all this 21st century neediness is wearying . If u wanna live on a boat you have to accept first & foremost that ..... its a ...... boat . Its not a flat & if u want it to function like then you are likely to be looking at spending a huge sum of money to set up whats needed . 

For a start youre likely to need as big a solar set up as you can fit . You will almost definately need a big built in generator . These will go most of the way to cover your power requirements . As has been said by those far more techy than myself - quite simply , if u dont put back into batteries more than u take out then youre going to be fitting new batteries on a fairly regular basis . An expensive  chore especially in winter when trudging back and forth along muddy towpaths . 

Another way to minimise your impact on your batteries is to cut back your needs . " worktop appliances" . What on earth does that actually mean ? On my boat a can opener is a gadget . A " worktop appliance " is a dish drainer . I do have a breadmaker though . Its called an oven . I think you need to reassess your needs .... quickly . Its likely you really don t need the gadgets you think you do . Deciding u dont need them isn t " going without " - its embracing an entirely different way of life , which requires a diffrent way of thinking . If you get into this train of thought then being conscious of power usage becomes semi automatic . 

Personally , & it may sound a little harsh - apologies , i think that unless you spend alot of money on " battery charging equipment " and spend alot of time thinking about " power cutbacks " you are heading for a difficult time onboard . 

cheers

Spot on and in a nutshell. No we don't live like cavemen but also no it aint a bloomin house nor do we want it to be.

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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Unless you have access to shore power (which you say you won't) then yes :)

The generator makes mains electric. The charger uses this mains electric to charge the batteries. If you have a nice big on board generator it's less hassle, runs on diesel, and is quiet. It will also run all your other mains stuff when it's running so that you're not hammering your batteries. The only downside is that it uses fuel, but it does so far more efficiently than running your engine purely to charge your batteries. In the summer you won't need it as much because of solar, particularly if you have a large array. 

That was my point really. You can be slightly power hungry if you want and spec your boat accordingly and on a widebeam, you have the space to do so, ie big battery bank, genny and solar. It does cost but its achievable.

Whether its a combi inverter/charger or separate inverter and battery charger, when you run the genny you will charge the batteries, but you will need a charger of some sorts. In addition and maybe controversially I fitted an alternator to battery charger(Sterling Power) which acts as a three stage charger for the domestic batteries from the main engine alternator when we are cruising.

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1 minute ago, Bricksh said:

maybe controversially I fitted an alternator to battery charger(Sterling Power) which acts as a three stage charger for the domestic batteries from the main engine alternator when we are cruising.

My opinion is that you could have spent your money on something far more worthwhile but not everyone would agree with me and anyway, it's your money :)

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1 minute ago, WotEver said:

My opinion is that you could have spent your money on something far more worthwhile but not everyone would agree with me and anyway, it's your money :)

As I said maybe controversial, but for me it was part of an alternator upgrade from 70A to 160A and I didn't have a split charger/ dual alternators so for us it provided a neat solution and does seam to work well; for us anyway.

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11 hours ago, Bricksh said:

As I said maybe controversial, but for me it was part of an alternator upgrade from 70A to 160A and I didn't have a split charger/ dual alternators so for us it provided a neat solution and does seam to work well; for us anyway.

Until it does not. When they play up diagnosis for an ordinary boater means swapping cables about on terminals (the main charging cables) and/or substitution. Substitution cost what - best part of £300. A split charge or nowadays a voltage sensitive relay is far easier to diagnose and  substitution costs well or very well under £100.

I am with Wotever on those, better to spend the money on making sure the charging system is correctly specified and wired. However they probably do have a place on really modern automotive systems on specialist vehicles.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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12 hours ago, Peppers said:

@Tony Brooks - I completely want the option that is best for the learners and the uninformed, so having both an ammeter and a smartguage sounds like the best option for me. I'm going to purchase those two things now so they are off my shopping list!

As for batteries, I'm worried that being a newbie I won't top them up right. Is there any such thing as cheap sealed batteries? You are totally right, we will probably ruin them fairly quickly as we "learn"

There is nothing difficult about topping up open cell  batteries, especially on a wide beam where you shoudl be able to organise easy access to the top of the bank.  They normally have a little level marker hanging down inside and under the filler cap. Even if they do nota good rule of thumb is "about 3mm above the separators" - you would probably call the separators the plates. If you fit sealed batteries the setting on the solar controller and also the battery charger will be such that they compromise the charging to a degree simply because you have to avoid the batteries gassing at all costs. With open cells its not so important  because you can top them up.

While looking at generators bear in mind we are talking about proper marine units not something designed for use on a building site. Those would be noisy and then some.

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