Why is it so hard to buy diesel?

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

You could well be right, I don't know enough to comment on your assessment. But if he's operating "below the radar", he's hardly selling the business clandestinely, is he? Ebay is seen by millions of people.

 

Quite. What an idiot. 

To get a hire boat licence, the operator must demonstrate to CRT he has a canalside premises with car parking and rubbish disposal (and a load of other stuff). As this bloke has neither we can deduce he is renting it out on a leisure boat licence.

He says in the listing he does it all by phone and email, and tells potential buyers they can operate the business the same way which is demonstrably false.  

Edited September 2, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[WotEver]

9 hours ago, Athy said:

You do not seem to understand that some newcomers have what it takes. Who would have given a rank amateur like Richard Branson a chance against established professionals like EMI and Decca when he opened that first shop behind Shelly's Shoes? He seemed to find enough customers to support his business, whereas within a few years Decca had fallen by the wayside.

Branson achieved early success through tax fraud (selling 'export only' records in his Oxford Street shop). Thanks to his mother remortgaging their house to pay off Customs & Excise he narrowly avoided a court case and prison. He then got lucky with one-hit-wonder schoolmate Mike Oldfield. I'm not decrying his success but it should be noted that without wealthy parents and a huge dollop of luck with Tubular Bells early in his career he would have failed spectacularly. 

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite. What an idiot. 

To get a hire boat licence, the operator must demonstrate to CRT he has a canalside premises with car parking and rubbish disposal (and a load of other stuff). As this bloke has neither we can deduce he is renting it out on a leisure boat licence.

He says in the listing he does it all by phone and email, and tells potential buyers they can operate the business the same way which is demonstrably false.  

And CRT aren't going to be much bothered by him seeing as he's selling the, umm, 'business' but you can be sure they'll be very interested in the new owner. They now know which boat to focus on come license renewal time. 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

To get a hire boat licence, the operator must demonstrate to CRT he has a canalside premises with car parking and rubbish disposal (and a load of other stuff).

Just a slight correction - that is only applicable to operators with two or more boats, the only criteria  for a 'single boat' operator is to have a 'home mooring' (+ insurance, a gas safety certificate and a BSS)

 

Extract from the Business licence (For Hire Boats) T&Cs

Self-Drive Holiday Hire (SDHH)

15.1    You must have a Home Mooring for the Boat, unless it is kept out of the water when  not on hire. 

 
15.2    Where you operate a fleet of hire Boats you must have enough mooring space to  accommodate the maximum number of boats that may be at the mooring at any given  time without obstructing the navigation, lock landings, locks and bridges and without  placing the Boat against the towpath or on designated visitor moorings.  

5.3    You may only use Trust facilities (as detailed in 15.4.1 to 15.4.5) to operate hire boats  with our express permission.  If you wish to operate two or more Self-Drive Hire Boats  that are kept in the Waterway you must have access to third party or your own  directly managed facilities. If these are within a marina or otherwise available to you  via a third party, we will ask you to provide evidence that the third party has given  you their consent for this use.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just a slight correction - that is only applicable to operators with two or more boats, the only criteria  for a 'single boat' operator is to have a 'home mooring' (+ insurance, a gas safety certificate and a BSS)

 

Thanks, I stand corrected. 

So one can operate one full-on hire boat from just a home mooring then? I thought that excluded 'self drive' hiring but maybe I have the wrong end of the stick. 

I also have in mind the home mooring has to be full status residential, with planning permission. Or is that wrong too?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thanks, I stand corrected. 

So one can operate one full-on hire boat from just a home mooring then? I thought that excluded 'self drive' hiring but maybe I have the wrong end of the stick. 

I also have in mind the home mooring has to be full status residential, with planning permission. Or is that wrong too?

There appears to be no requirement (in the T&Cs) for the mooring to be 'residential' (but why would there be - boat hirers will be -presumably - cruising)

I could imagine that (if you wanted to be pedantic) that there could be a need for the mooring to have PP /change of use for 'business use', but it is not required by C&RT, and I guess would just be ignored / enforced by the LA

With one hire boat you can use C&RTs 'facilities'.

With Two (or more) Hire boats you must provide, or have written authority from the provider (Marina etc) that you can use theirs, you must provide, as a minimum :

You must be able to demonstrate to us that you have the right to  access the following  facilities: 

15.4.1 suitable customer parking 

15.4.2 fresh drinking water 

15.4.3 refuse disposal facilities 

15.4.4 a means of disposing of sewage from the boat (where relevant) 

15.4.5  a safe place from which you can board and disembark customers

[David Mack]

As the boat is based on the Nene presumably its EA's requirements for hire boats that apply, not CRT's.

[cuthound]

On 31/08/2017 at 22:06, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Orion boats are as technically good in every way and look better. Much the same sort of price.

Except their tugs can only take 6kg gas bottles unless you add a forecabin, and at least in Frakn's case, the engine is located on one side, partly in the bathroom and partly in the bedroom.

However i do agree that they do look good.

Almost every boat has design quirks, you either accept them, modify them  (where precticable) or keep looking and buy a boat without any (hard unless you really know what you are doing and fully specify a boat from new).

[Mike Todd]

15 hours ago, dor said:

That ebay link is a laugh a line.  Note there is very little said about the boat except to say it has been overplated!

Suspect they confuse turnover and profit. You can have as much turnover a you like but 'earn' depends on profit. Assuming that the headline really means £36K, then what sort of profit margin is usually possible? Does it include depreciation as well as medium term maintenance? Hard to see how a single boat can make that amount of profit in a single year. I would have thought that 25-30 weeks per year of revenue earning would be good, even for an established business. 

[dor]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

15.2    Where you operate a fleet of hire Boats you must have enough mooring space to  accommodate the maximum number of boats that may be at the mooring at any given  time without obstructing the navigation, lock landings, locks and bridges and without  placing the Boat against the towpath or on designated visitor moorings.  

Try telling that to the boatyards at Wrenbury and Bunbury.  And no doubt many more.

2 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Suspect they confuse turnover and profit. You can have as much turnover a you like but 'earn' depends on profit.

Turnover for vanity, profit for sanity.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, dor said:

Try telling that to the boatyards at Wrenbury and Bunbury.  And no doubt many more.

We had a mooring at Whixall Marina (Llangollen) for a couple of years - Wrenbury was particularly bad.

[ditchcrawler]

On 01/09/2017 at 20:36, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

From the advert (seeking a buyer for their 'holiday hire boat company'):

I have built this small business which is very easy to run and can be done from your phone at home with face book and other online sales companies free of change. This boat will rent for a minimum of £750 a week 7 days and will rent all year round no problems 

 

We have 6 weeks worth of invoices to show takings from the Narrow Boat Hire

 

Simply take over our company, receive emails, take bookings and money and send customers to the boat with a coded key that can be opened at any time.

Customers will receive a DVD and a interaction manually and all our paper work in the post and simply confirm they are happy to use. They will send this pack back to you and they are fully insured and ready to enjoy there holiday.

 

 

 

I'd be fascinated to hear what CRT think of all this. 

 

No mention of commercial licence, BSS etc on the boat, and CRT require a premises with car parking (along with a load of other stuff) to run a hire boat business legitimately, IIRC.

But its not on CRT waters, its on the EA Nene  so none of CRT requirements come into it

11 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite. What an idiot. 

To get a hire boat licence, the operator must demonstrate to CRT he has a canalside premises with car parking and rubbish disposal (and a load of other stuff). As this bloke has neither we can deduce he is renting it out on a leisure boat licence.

He says in the listing he does it all by phone and email, and tells potential buyers they can operate the business the same way which is demonstrably false.  

Maybe you should read his advertisement more carefully

[WotEver]

49 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Maybe you should read his advertisement more carefully

Maybe you should consider the supposed 'facts' which are very clear if you read the advertisement carefully.

He claims to be selling a business that is easily capable of making £36k (or a lot more with very little effort) profit pa. So why on God's green earth is he selling it for £52k?  If he were to keep it then he would make that £52k in less than 18 months and still own the business. 

My conclusion, having read the advertisement carefully, is that he's either an idiot or a liar.

 

[frahkn]

10 hours ago, cuthound said:

Except their tugs can only take 6kg gas bottles unless you add a forecabin, and at least in Frakn's case, the engine is located on one side, partly in the bathroom and partly in the bedroom.

However i do agree that they do look good.

Almost every boat has design quirks, you either accept them, modify them  (where precticable) or keep looking and buy a boat without any (hard unless you really know what you are doing and fully specify a boat from new).

I fell for my boat at first sight even though (the most obvious point) it was 70' and I was looking for a 57'.

Two months later I was very worried that its "quirks" were going to overwhelm me.

Now (after five years) I am beginning to get used to them.

Throughout, I have really loved the boat. You can moor it amongst many boats and it still stands out (in my opinion) when you return to it.

But Cuthound is only beginning to describe its oddities, some are just odd while some verge on lunacy.

Frank.

[Rose Narrowboats]

For the record, there's no way on earth his figures stack up, nor has he the paperwork, policies or procedures in place to pass a handover audit (certainly a CRT requirement, so no chance of relocating the business nearer London), or any concept of what's involved in a hireboat turnround - who's cleaning it, fuelling it, servicing it, doing the pump out and gas?

Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, I've got a whole fleet these that can be yours for a couple of mill

[Dr Bob]

34 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Maybe you should consider the supposed 'facts' which are very clear if you read the advertisement carefully.

He claims to be selling a business that is easily capable of making £36k (or a lot more with very little effort) profit pa. So why on God's green earth is he selling it for £52k?  If he were to keep it then he would make that £52k in less than 18 months and still own the business. 

My conclusion, having read the advertisement carefully, is that he's either an idiot or a liar.

 

If you read the advert carefully you will see that he says 'earn' up to £52K per year with rental of £1K per week, ie his 'earn' is turnover NOT profit. For established businesses, one way to determine sale price is turnover or 3-8 times profit (simplify by saying 5 times profit). Hence his £52K price is the same as the maximum annual turnover which is directionally ok. The problem with this deal though is that the value of the business will include the value of the assets (assume that includes the boat) and any cash in the business less any debts. It is impossible to value the business therefore without that information. If the boat was a business asset and the value of the boat was £50K then that would have a huge effect on the value of the business. Has VAT been paid on the boat? etc, etc etc.

For me the biggest issue is what is the profit? Cleaning? Maintenance? Repairs? Insurance? Compliance? Bad debts? Tax debts? I cant see it making much profit if one sticks to the rules (but I havent a clue what the EA rules are). If you are selling a 'going concern' then I would expect a few years of invoices etc not 6 weeks.

Edit - while I was typing -Thankyou Mr Rose for beating me to it.

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Dr Bob

[ditchcrawler]

34 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Maybe you should consider the supposed 'facts' which are very clear if you read the advertisement carefully.

He claims to be selling a business that is easily capable of making £36k (or a lot more with very little effort) profit pa. So why on God's green earth is he selling it for £52k?  If he were to keep it then he would make that £52k in less than 18 months and still own the business. 

My conclusion, having read the advertisement carefully, is that he's either an idiot or a liar.

 

O i will go along with that.  Just everyone quoting CRT rules.

3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

For me the biggest issue is what is the profit? Cleaning? Maintenance? Repairs?  

 

Can you do that on the phone or via a computer?

[cereal tiller]

13 hours ago, WotEver said:

Branson achieved early success through tax fraud (selling 'export only' records in his Oxford Street shop). Thanks to his mother remortgaging their house to pay off Customs & Excise he narrowly avoided a court case and prison. He then got lucky with one-hit-wonder schoolmate Mike Oldfield. I'm not decrying his success but it should be noted that without wealthy parents and a huge dollop of luck with Tubular Bells early in his career he would have failed spectacularly. 

And CRT aren't going to be much bothered by him seeing as he's selling the, umm, 'business' but you can be sure they'll be very interested in the new owner. They now know which boat to focus on come license renewal time. 

Your opinion of R. Branson is Identical to mine, when people quote him and the likes of Alan Sugar as entrepreneurs I do wonder as to  their ability to Perceive  matters with any degree of truth and Clarity !

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

For the record, there's no way on earth his figures stack up, nor has he the paperwork, policies or procedures in place to pass a handover audit (certainly a CRT requirement, so no chance of relocating the business nearer London), or any concept of what's involved in a hireboat turnround - who's cleaning it, fuelling it, servicing it, doing the pump out and gas?

Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, I've got a whole fleet these that can be yours for a couple of mill

 

Given the work and grief involved in running a hire boat business, I'll offer you 50p for it.

[Canal Cuttings]

On 31/08/2017 at 16:59, Rose Narrowboats said:

I don't see how our policy of not supplying under 50 litres of fuel can be viewed as an attempt to rip anyone off. Surely you must be aware that in almost all cases anyone who needs less than that effectively has a full tank and would be well advised to use up more of what they have anyway.

Just to let you know one reason why this might happen (not criticising your decision):  we have a share boat, and part of the rules is that at the end of every use we fill up with water, pump out, and top up the diesel tank to full, even if we only had it for a weekend.  I can't think of any other way of easily working out how much fuel we have to pay for, so that's why we do it.

[macc]

On 02/09/2017 at 09:24, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite. What an idiot. 

To get a hire boat licence, the operator must demonstrate to CRT he has a canalside premises with car parking and rubbish disposal (and a load of other stuff). As this bloke has neither we can deduce he is renting it out on a leisure boat licence.

He says in the listing he does it all by phone and email, and tells potential buyers they can operate the business the same way which is demonstrably false.  

but the boat is on ea waters it has nothing to do with cart.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, macc said:

but the boat is on ea waters it has nothing to do with cart.

 

A point made several times already in the thread!

So what are the EA rules on licencing a hire boat? Or are you saying there are none?

[Athy]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A point made several times already in the thread!

So what are the EA rules on licencing a hire boat? Or are you saying there are none?

Yes, it has been made - I am guessing that no one here knows what E.A.'s policy is in this matter. There are more questions than answers...

A chap on our road has a single hire-boat which is parked outside his house. I suspect that the M.L.C. does not have extensive regulations regarding such craft. To be fair, I am not sure whether the boat is skippered or self-drive.

EDIT: it seems that this boat does one-day skippered cruises, but not for much longer as the couple who own it are retiring.

[RLWP]

The BSS requirements are the same, of course: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/anglian-waterways-boat-registration-requirements/anglian-waterways-boat-registration-requirements#construction-and-equipment-standards

Richard

[macc]

21 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A point made several times already in the thread!

So what are the EA rules on licencing a hire boat? Or are you saying there are none?

Were have i implied that they have no rules of course they have rules but they will not be the same as cart all i can find is their  Commercial vessel registration charges.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, RLWP said:

The BSS requirements are the same, of course: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/anglian-waterways-boat-registration-requirements/anglian-waterways-boat-registration-requirements#construction-and-equipment-standards

Richard

 

To be fair the listing says the boat has the right BSS for hiring.

It was all the stuff about the hire base that it turns out even CRT don't require for a single boat hire business. So possibly it actually IS legitimate to run a single hire boat from a phone.