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Smartgauge Questions


rupertbear

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19 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

and charging on a daily basis, rather than leaving it for a few days.

I still have an open mind on that one.

One thing I'm pretty certain of, is that when I read a moan about failing batts, it almost never includes the above terms in the description (if any!) of the problem.

I don't think there's an easy answer to this problem, maybe it's partly because canal boats are a fairly 'lite' hobby; the consequences of dud batts is merely the outlay for a set of fresh new ones. :)

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I use a smartguage and a bvm 702 bit more expensive than a volt and ammeter but after a few months learning to interpret the information they provide i have no issues with either ... dont have my solar fitted yet as i need to paint my roof first but even with the solar charging in the mix just see it as another learning curve as to how it influences things, but has as been said only use the SG during the evening anyway.

 

Rick 

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  • 5 months later...

My experience of SG is mixed. I fitted one on a previous boat and all seemed fine. When we bought our current boat it came with a BMV600  so I fitted a SG to run alongside it. All was fine but then it started to freeze during charging at around 85%. Not too big a deal as I tend to use the BMV charge current as a charging guide. I recently fitted a set of replacement batteries and the SG is still freezing at around 85%. There’s also 300w solar fitted with a MPPT controller. 

So my regime now is I charge the batteries until the charge current on the BMV below 5 amps and voltage is a steady 13.20 volts which is the float charge voltage according to Victron website for the AGM batteries. At this point I manually reset the SG to 99% because it will be frozen at 85% and then use it as a guide as to when I should recharge again.

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1 minute ago, WotEver said:

You don’t need to ‘reset’ the SmartGauge. It will re-synch all by itself when you start discharging. 

My understanding from another thread is that it will not, unless you let it go below 75%.

Am I wrong?

I have a similar situation, that I can't achieve above 85% to 90%, as my Electroquest (Fairstone) charger can't be persuaded to stay very long at all in absorption, believing the bank already fully charged.

My hope is that the relatively new bank is at far more SoC than the Smartgauge indicates, but the latter steadfastly refuses to read higher.

(Its voltage reading, whilst never compared to a meter known to be calibrated spot on, compares well to at least 4 other multimeters I own, leading me to think I don't have a "Mike the Boilerman" model!).

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9 hours ago, Cloudinspector said:

My experience of SG is mixed. I fitted one on a previous boat and all seemed fine. When we bought our current boat it came with a BMV600  so I fitted a SG to run alongside it. All was fine but then it started to freeze during charging at around 85%. Not too big a deal as I tend to use the BMV charge current as a charging guide. I recently fitted a set of replacement batteries and the SG is still freezing at around 85%. There’s also 300w solar fitted with a MPPT controller. 

So my regime now is I charge the batteries until the charge current on the BMV below 5 amps and voltage is a steady 13.20 volts which is the float charge voltage according to Victron website for the AGM batteries. At this point I manually reset the SG to 99% because it will be frozen at 85% and then use it as a guide as to when I should recharge again.

What is the voltage doing when the SG freezes at 85%? It seems highly unlikely that the SG will freeze as you say, due to a fault. I would expect to either work, or not. You mention 13.2 volts, this is a float voltage not a charging voltage. If you are charging your batteries until you have 13.2v and 5A you are seriously undercharging your batteries and the SG is indicating correctly. You need to keep charging at 14.4v or whatever the absorption voltage is, until the current gets to 5A. You will then find that the batteries are full charged and the SG will read 100%.

To reiterate: You are seriously undercharging your batteries. Perhaps because the charger you are using, goes to float far too early. This is a common design fault with some chargers. Your new batteries won’t last long if you persist in charging them that way.

Edited by nicknorman
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and that brings us back to the advisability of turning smart chargers off for a few seconds and back on again when they go into float and seeing how long they stay ian bulk/absorption afterwards - especially if you have battery monitoring that you can use properly.

As lead acid batteries have a cell voltage of 2.2 volts when fully charged I would suggest that a float of 13.2 is rather low. At that voltage it would not be charging a well charge battery. That may explain why the Smartguage "sticks" at 85%. I think I would set afloat on a live aboard boat at about 13.6 volts and say 13.4 on one that gets left unattended for long periods.

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42 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You need to keep charging at 14.4v or whatever the absorption voltage is, until the current gets to 5A. You will then find that the batteries are full charged and the SG will read 100%.

This is not my experience, (I have raised other threads on the point).

My set up......

5 x 110Ah basic flooded batteries, (replaced last year).
Electroquest (Fairstone) 30 Amp charger (I believe the same as the Numax 30A).

This charges flooded batteries at 14.5V, (not customisable), but switches to float when charging current falls to 10% of quoted maximum capacity - so 10% of 30A = 3A, (also not customisable, as far as I can see).

At this point my Smartgauge most definitely is not reading anything like 100%.  In fact on the most recent trip to the boat the charger did not think the batteries needed more than float, and the Smartgauge continued to record around 86%.  (We were on the mooring overnight, only running LED lighting, and occasional use of ater pump - no other 12 volt demand).

My understanding from the other threads on this is that unless I deliberately run my bank down to the point the SG reads 75%, it will not attempt to recalibrate itself.  I'm reluctant to do that, as with only a 30A charger, and limited time currently on board, I'm not convinced I can then get the voltage of the bank back to where I wsant it, before I disconnect the electrics and go home.  (We do not leave 230V power connected when not on board).

 

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39 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

and that brings us back to the advisability of turning smart chargers off for a few seconds and back on again when they go into float and seeing how long they stay ian bulk/absorption afterwards - especially if you have battery monitoring that you can use properly.

When we went to the boat  overnightthe other day after maybe a month away , the power was all connected afresh, and the Electoquest 30A charger then turned on.  It only spent a few minutes in absorption, before dropping to float, because the charge current had almost immediately gone under 3 amps, and the manufacturer says this is what it is designed to do, in that case.  In float it is doing about 13.5 volts, I think, and the charge current is only peanuts - no more than 0.5A, from memory, (which, of course, with a 550Ah bank would take a very long while to make much difference to an indicated 86% on the SG, if it were true!)

We are back up there tomorrow, probably for longer, so I will try to monitor voltages and currents better.

I'm continuing to hope the Smartgauge is lying, but I don't have another charger I can substitute to see what might happen if I did.

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11 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

This is not my experience, (I have raised other threads on the point).

My set up......

5 x 110Ah basic flooded batteries, (replaced last year).
Electroquest (Fairstone) 30 Amp charger (I believe the same as the Numax 30A).

This charges flooded batteries at 14.5V, (not customisable), but switches to float when charging current falls to 10% of quoted maximum capacity - so 10% of 30A = 3A, (also not customisable, as far as I can see).

At this point my Smartgauge most definitely is not reading anything like 100%.  In fact on the most recent trip to the boat the charger did not think the batteries needed more than float, and the Smartgauge continued to record around 86%.  (We were on the mooring overnight, only running LED lighting, and occasional use of ater pump - no other 12 volt demand).

My understanding from the other threads on this is that unless I deliberately run my bank down to the point the SG reads 75%, it will not attempt to recalibrate itself.  I'm reluctant to do that, as with only a 30A charger, and limited time currently on board, I'm not convinced I can then get the voltage of the bank back to where I wsant it, before I disconnect the electrics and go home.  (We do not leave 230V power connected when not on board).

 

I think your situation is a little different to the OP. You connected the SG with fully charged batteries. You could have set the SoC on the SG to 100% but you didn’t, you left it at the default 75%. You have never significantly discharged your batteries since, and thus the charge spends very little time in bulk/absorption. Only when the voltage is above float voltage will the SG start to count up. I am confident that the first time you actually use your boat (cruise for a few hours and/or stay overnight away from shore power) it will be synchronised.

i think you are perhaps slightly confusing synchronising with calibrating. In your case, the SG will synchronise with the actually SoC when the actual SoC falls to the indicated value, in your case 86%. Calibration is an ongoing process where the SG gradually fine tunes itself to the particular characteristics of the battery bank.

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

When we went to the boat  overnightthe other day after maybe a month away , the power was all connected afresh, and the Electoquest 30A charger then turned on.  It only spent a few minutes in absorption, before dropping to float, because the charge current had almost immediately gone under 3 amps, and the manufacturer says this is what it is designed to do, in that case.  In float it is doing about 13.5 volts, I think, and the charge current is only peanuts - no more than 0.5A, from memory, (which, of course, with a 550Ah bank would take a very long while to make much difference to an indicated 86% on the SG, if it were true!)

We are back up there tomorrow, probably for longer, so I will try to monitor voltages and currents better.

I'm continuing to hope the Smartgauge is lying, but I don't have another charger I can substitute to see what might happen if I did.

It is “lying”, because you did not set it to the known SoC when you installed it, and you have not yet ever cycled the batteries down to the value it is showing. The behaviour you describe is entirely to be expected.

Edited by nicknorman
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6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It is “lying”, because you did not set it to the known SoC when you installed it, and you have not yet ever cycled the batteries down to the value it is showing. The behaviour you describe is entirely to be expected.

Possibly......

The actual story was that during a rewiring operation it had to be disconnected, and was not set to anything other than the default value when re-connected, (that is, after all exactly equivalent to the original situation where it was installed in the first place).

The boat has not moved since, because all cruising got cancelled because of our sons injury - that was not a situation I expected to be faced with.

However, for whatever reason, what it is reading has got progressively rather less.  At one stage (after disconnection and reconnection) it was managing low 90s for percentage.  It is now running about 5% lower, which I find it hard to not interpret that it thinks the batteries are now not as well charged as they once were.  If the bank really were discharged by at least 5% more than once indicated, (which is the implication to me in those numbers), I am surprised a 14.5V volt charger doesn't want to put more than 3 amps into them.

It is unlikely now we will boat over the next month or two, so I have little choice but to wait and see what happens then.  Actually we only have an ancient AC5R alternator, (believed to be a 60A model), with a completely standard charging voltage, and currently no external controller, so I'm actually reluctant to deliberately run my battery bank low, just to see what the behaviour then is if we do.

 

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

What is the voltage doing when the SG freezes at 85%? It seems highly unlikely that the SG will freeze as you say, due to a fault. I would expect to either work, or not. You mention 13.2 volts, this is a float voltage not a charging voltage. If you are charging your batteries until you have 13.2v and 5A you are seriously undercharging your batteries and the SG is indicating correctly. You need to keep charging at 14.4v or whatever the absorption voltage is, until the current gets to 5A. You will then find that the batteries are full charged and the SG will read 100%.

To reiterate: You are seriously undercharging your batteries. Perhaps because the charger you are using, goes to float far too early. This is a common design fault with some chargers. Your new batteries won’t last long if you persist in charging them that way.

we use a victron multiplus 3000w/120amp invertor/charger this is fed from a 9kva built in generator. Batteries are 3 x 220 amp victron AGM and we live aboard off grid. It seems that no matter how long i have the charger on SG never goes above 85%. This hasn't always been the case. when i first fitted the SG it used to go to 100% however in the last 12 months it has started to freeze at 85% regardless of how long the bartteries are on charge. Our charging regime hasn't changed and i'd say that on average we charge for 4-5 hours every day. Are you saying there's a fault with the charger? what charge voltage and current readings would be normal?

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1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

If I'm rembering correctly Victron chargers go to 13. 6v after bulk charge and stays there for 24hrs after which, if no discharge takes place, it drops to 13.2v for long term float charge to prevent plate corrosion

That makes sense but what does it do to counter self discharge when its been at 13.2 for weeks. Does it periodically pop back up to 13.6, if so then it shudl fully charge the batteries.

43 minutes ago, Cloudinspector said:

we use a victron multiplus 3000w/120amp invertor/charger this is fed from a 9kva built in generator. Batteries are 3 x 220 amp victron AGM and we live aboard off grid. It seems that no matter how long i have the charger on SG never goes above 85%. This hasn't always been the case. when i first fitted the SG it used to go to 100% however in the last 12 months it has started to freeze at 85% regardless of how long the bartteries are on charge. Our charging regime hasn't changed and i'd say that on average we charge for 4-5 hours every day. Are you saying there's a fault with the charger? what charge voltage and current readings would be normal?

Could you have a duff cell?

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I've had a Smartgage for a fair few years now, and look at it several times every day.

Here are some observations.

Its a useful guide during most of the charging phase, more convenient than looking at charge current, but its useless at indicating when to stop charging, it gets to 100% when the batteries are still a long way off fully charged. This is very bad news for people who use the smartgage to tell them when to stop charging, but consistent with the user manual.

After any charging the Smartgage will be wrong for several hours. If it says 100% (or 95% or whatever) then it sticks at that value for several hours before it starts to fall. This is not really surprising if one thinks about surface charge etc.

Once discharge is underway the Smartgage is a truly brilliant instrument, and this is what its designed for.

One other thing, if I do an equalisation, or have the batteries on shorepower for a while (just been on holiday) then the Smartgage goes a little crazy and initially drops rather quickly (heart in mouth have I killed the batteries with over enthusiastic equalisation?), but once it gets down to about 80% it starts to sort itself out.

..............Dave

 

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5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

That makes sense but what does it do to counter self discharge when its been at 13.2 for weeks. Does it periodically pop back up to 13.6, if so then it shudl fully charge the batteries.

Could you have a duff cell?

i hope not. Brand new batteries fitted a month ago. The SG was behaving the same with the previous batteries which were also victron AGM. This morning the SG was reading 80% when i started the generator and switched on the charger. Normally i would let them discharge further than that but i wanted to check the charge figures while I'm around. the charger was only in bulk mode for a couple of mins if that, it then switched to absorption charging at 14.40v/55amps. After 45 mins 13.80v/15amps SG reading 85%. At 1 hour 13.80v/10amps, SG reading 85%

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24 minutes ago, Cloudinspector said:

the charger was only in bulk mode for a couple of mins if that, it then switched to absorption charging at 14.40v/55amps. After 45 mins 13.80v/15amps

It sounds suspiciously like the charger is faulty. If you’ve set it to stay in absorption until 2% of capacity then it should be staying at >14.4V until the current drops to <10A. If you’re getting 15A at 13.8V then the Batteries are well off 100%, probably about 85% charged which, coincidentally, is what SmartGauge is telling you. 

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2 hours ago, Cloudinspector said:

we use a victron multiplus 3000w/120amp invertor/charger this is fed from a 9kva built in generator. Batteries are 3 x 220 amp victron AGM and we live aboard off grid. It seems that no matter how long i have the charger on SG never goes above 85%. This hasn't always been the case. when i first fitted the SG it used to go to 100% however in the last 12 months it has started to freeze at 85% regardless of how long the bartteries are on charge. Our charging regime hasn't changed and i'd say that on average we charge for 4-5 hours every day. Are you saying there's a fault with the charger? what charge voltage and current readings would be normal?

Charger going to float early seems to be a regular pest. Victron have some sort of a adaptive charger setting - the default - which seems to cause this problem. It is pants! If you always charge using a generator, there is no point in having float and it would be better to disable it by setting all voltages to the same absorption voltage.

To answer your question I’d want the voltage to remain up at at least 14.4v ( more with cold batteries) until the current has fallen to about 1% of capacity. So keep an eye on the charging voltage and if it drops suddenly, when moments earlier the charge current was still quite high, something is wrong. Whether it is a fault or a setting issue, not enough info to say but probably the latter.

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Charger going to float early seems to be a regular pest. Victron have some sort of a adaptive charger setting - the default - which seems to cause this problem. It is pants! If you always charge using a generator, there is no point in having float and it would be better to disable it by setting all voltages to the same absorption voltage.

To answer your question I’d want the voltage to remain up at at least 14.4v ( more with cold batteries) until the current has fallen to about 1% of capacity. So keep an eye on the charging voltage and if it drops suddenly, when moments earlier the charge current was still quite high, something is wrong. Whether it is a fault or a setting issue, not enough info to say but probably the latter.

That makes sense. What you’re describing there seems to match what’s happening and given that we only ever charge via the generator or alternator then disabling the float mode may be the answer.

FYI I had the generator and charger on for just over 2 hours this morning before I had to leave for work and these are the charge rate changes.

Start. 14.40v 55amps SG 80%  Abs

45 mins 13.80v 15 Amps SG 84% fl

60 mins  13.80v 10 amps SG 85%

75 mins  13.25v  3.10 amps SG 86%

 

 

 

Edited by Cloudinspector
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The smart gauge is now a belmar product. I was at a presentation by a guy from belmar in the states and they are about to bring out a new product with the benefits of amp hour counters and smart gauge which gives soc under all conditions and %capacity remaining after age/sulphate losses. Allegedly.

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9 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

The smart gauge is now a belmar product. I was at a presentation by a guy from belmar in the states and they are about to bring out a new product with the benefits of amp hour counters and smart gauge which gives soc under all conditions and %capacity remaining after age/sulphate losses. Allegedly.

That sounds like Datacell aka ‘Son of SmartGauge’. It’s around £1000. I believe that Belmar are the US distributors. It’s manufactured by Merlin Power Products. 

1 hour ago, Cloudinspector said:

I had the generator and charger on for just over 2 hours this morning before I had to leave for work and these are the charge rate changes.

Start. 14.40v 55amps SG 80%  Abs

45 mins 13.80v 15 Amps SG 84% fl

60 mins  13.80v 10 amps SG 85%

75 mins  13.25v  3.10 amps SG 86%

What I wrote in post #67 holds. If it’s not a fault then it’s a setting. Either way it’s switching to float way too early. 

Edited by WotEver
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Oh Dear - every time there is an item like this about charging the batteries, I read it all avidly until I get to the point where it all becomes a great worry and past the point of my understanding what everyone is saying.  I then go back to just hoping the 4 solar panels keep the two batteries topped up even in poor weather and if the only gauge I have shows less than a full 5 lights then I put the charger on each battery one at a time until the charger green light comes on.  I always think I should find out how to get the charger to carry on charging after it thinks it has charged the batteries (as folk on here seem to be saying I should) but I have no idea what meter to buy /how to fit it/how to read it and what it means if I could. So I just carry on and wait for the batteries to die and spend my money and worry on buying a couple more. 

I bet I am not alone in this.................

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25 minutes ago, canalboat said:

Oh Dear - every time there is an item like this about charging the batteries, I read it all avidly until I get to the point where it all becomes a great worry and past the point of my understanding what everyone is saying.  I then go back to just hoping the 4 solar panels keep the two batteries topped up even in poor weather and if the only gauge I have shows less than a full 5 lights then I put the charger on each battery one at a time until the charger green light comes on.  I always think I should find out how to get the charger to carry on charging after it thinks it has charged the batteries (as folk on here seem to be saying I should) but I have no idea what meter to buy /how to fit it/how to read it and what it means if I could. So I just carry on and wait for the batteries to die and spend my money and worry on buying a couple more. 

I bet I am not alone in this.................

Stay as you are, don't ever become obcessed with the subject, its a pitiful and sad malady.  I know of a chap that is so obcessed with his charging system that he takes a picnic lunch and flasks of tea to the dashboard at the back of his boat, in front of which he has a commode situated, on which he sits for hours and hours on end, eyes glued unblinkingly to his gauges. momitors, lights and stuff, watching and noting down what every indictor light is doing and not doing and the tiniest unusual flicker of a gauge needle makes his heart miss a beat.  He became as bald as a coot and all his teeth fell out very early in life because of the worry of it all. He said he didn't understand any of it, but it all facinated him and loved the worry, so much so that he wouldn't partake in any other hobby for anything.

Edited by bizzard
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