Electrics set up inc. incinerator toilet!

[David Mack]

@Peppers hasn't visited the forum for nearly 4 years, so we'll probably never know!

[MtB]

6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I would be concerned about bringing mains voltage low down into a potentially wet and damp room. Of more importance, if your boat is subject to the RCD/RCR, does the toilet meet the relevant ISOs. If it is designed for on land use, it may not have been tested or certified for marine use.

 

Does the BSS inspection require 230Vac stuff to be approved for marine use then?

 

I can imagine the RCD being a problem if this query is about a new-build, but not BSS. 

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Does the BSS inspection require 230Vac stuff to be approved for marine use then?

 

I can imagine the RCD being a problem if this query is about a new-build, but not BSS. 

 

That is my point, I doubt the BSS gives a hoot but as Alan keeps saying the RCD/RCR seems to have been altered, so any significant alternations need recertification so if it's a post 1998 boat the RCD/RCR requirements may still have to be met.  I don't know but, again from what Alan says, with an invalid RCD compliance he might end up with a  boat more unsellable that the new toilet would make it.

 

The other thing that struck me is that if it's a live-a-board house type electrical regulations may come into play.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is my point, I doubt the BSS gives a hoot but as Alan keeps saying the RCD/RCR seems to have been altered, so any significant alternations need recertification so if it's a post 1998 boat the RCD/RCR requirements may still have to be met.  I don't know but, again from what Alan says, with an invalid RCD compliance he might end up with a  boat more unsellable that the new toilet would make it.

 

The other thing that struck me is that if it's a live-a-board house type electrical regulations may come into play.

 

Ah right, I see what you mean. This is another of those things that differentiate boater attitudes. Yes if the OP owns a post 1998 boat, the RCD might be invalidated but honestly, does a "proper boater" care one jot? Who would find out, how would they find out and what enforcement action might occur as a result? I would suggest the answers to these questions are respectively "non-one", "they can't" and "none". 

 

So the only boaters who would give a toss, would be those who care deeply about bureaucracy and enjoy box ticking even more then they enjoy boating. 

[Tony Brooks]

The action that might result is a court case, but I don't know if it's a civil or criminal matter, I suspect it is criminal. The chances of it getting that far are extremely remote, and on that we can agree. It has been reported that some brokers are refusing to handle boats that need an RCR/RCD that do not have one, so if what Alan says about the need to recertify when changes take place is correct there may be a problem if the RCR/RCD documentation  does not match the actual equipment on board.

 

Then there is the insurance company's "get out of jail free card" if the thing caused a fire and it proved to be not approved for boat use.

 

It is all a matter of how the boater feels about the risks, small though they are, but this does not mean that we should answer that it's fine as far as the BSS is concerned and fail to point out other regulations that might have a bearing on the situation. Having been warned, it is now the questioner's decision whether to investigate a bit more or simply go ahead.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[MtB]

I once bought a boat that should have had an RCD but didn't. This was not long after the whole RCD scheme was introduced. I approached the builder and asked them to sign an Annex III declaration but they kindly and helpfully told me to go F myself, so I investigated further and discovered yes it is a criminal offence, but prosecutions have to be mounted by Trading Standards, and the Trading Standards dept at the time said yes technically there was an offence but they weren't willing to do anything about it as they had limited resources and frankly they, and I quote, "had bigger fish to fry". 

 

So at that point I just let it drop as like I said above, no-one cares, me included. I only took it that far as the builder had been so obstructive and unpleasant about it. 

[Morningmist]

Regarding fitting a Cinderella Incineration toilet and whether a 240v model would comply with BSS  or any other regulations.

I have recently finisher a 3-year fit out of my narrow boat, which I now live on as a continual cruiser.  At the 2018 Crick boat show, I was introduced to the Separett Composting toilet and was impressed, but before purchasing I went to the CRT tent and enquired about its suitability for use on the cut.  I spoke to a number of CRT people before being passed onto someone who 'knew' and was advised that I could bag and bin. So given the facts, I went ahead and fitted the Separett into my 90k new floating home. (build the first for your enemy, the second for your friend and the third for your self)  Given that now being the owner of a bin and bag toilet I am one of the lowest forms of life on the planet, I am looking at changing my toilet. (I've only been on the boat 7 weeks.)  IDO NOT WANT TO START A DEBATE ABOUT COMPOSTING TOILETS, It's ALL GOING ON ANOTHER DISCUSSION, Noor do I want to debate about the amount of gas/ energy a Cinderella can use. I have a 5kw generator, power is not a problem, but a 240v appliance in a shower room does make me a little uneasy. The blurb on the Cinderella says it's suitable for a shower room as it's got an ip34 rating  and that on independent tests it has no live part can be touched!! But before I part with another 4k I just would really like to know of any hidden pitfalls regarding any regulations. My vessel is a self build as such I have no RDC on the vessel. 

[PCSB]

43 minutes ago, Morningmist said:

Regarding fitting a Cinderella Incineration toilet and whether a 240v model would comply with BSS  or any other regulations.

I have recently finisher a 3-year fit out of my narrow boat, which I now live on as a continual cruiser.  At the 2018 Crick boat show, I was introduced to the Separett Composting toilet and was impressed, but before purchasing I went to the CRT tent and enquired about its suitability for use on the cut.  I spoke to a number of CRT people before being passed onto someone who 'knew' and was advised that I could bag and bin. So given the facts, I went ahead and fitted the Separett into my 90k new floating home. (build the first for your enemy, the second for your friend and the third for your self)  Given that now being the owner of a bin and bag toilet I am one of the lowest forms of life on the planet, I am looking at changing my toilet. (I've only been on the boat 7 weeks.)  IDO NOT WANT TO START A DEBATE ABOUT COMPOSTING TOILETS, It's ALL GOING ON ANOTHER DISCUSSION, Noor do I want to debate about the amount of gas/ energy a Cinderella can use. I have a 5kw generator, power is not a problem, but a 240v appliance in a shower room does make me a little uneasy. The blurb on the Cinderella says it's suitable for a shower room as it's got an ip34 rating  and that on independent tests it has no live part can be touched!! But before I part with another 4k I just would really like to know of any hidden pitfalls regarding any regulations. My vessel is a self build as such I have no RDC on the vessel. 

I cannot advise on the RCD requirements, there are, err "better" qualified folk than I for that

 

According to the blurb on the toilet it states it can be installed in a wet room. A wet room is "wetter" than a shower room so I would think you will be safe to do so. This of course presumes you will have it fitted correctly as per their installation instructions.

 

fwiw I feel your pain re seperating loos, we were considering one for our new boat, but recent changes from CaRT means that for now we will be using a cassette loo.

 

I'll be interested in how you get on with it, I've looked at the propane powered one but the numbers don't really work very well. Basically a bottle of gas will last around 9 days based on my assumptions and Cinderella's numbers re gas usage.

[MtB]

54 minutes ago, Morningmist said:

I have a 5kw generator, power is not a problem,

 

The one pitfall that crosses my mind is that you are not allowed to run engines 8pm to 8am. 

 

What is the power consumption of the burner bog (whilst running), i.e. can it run silently from your inverter? A

 

And does it need to run immediately after using the bog, or can it wait until 8am if you used it after 8pm? 

[David Mack]

Much of the energy consumed by incinerating toilets is surely used to drive off the water content - basically boiling urine. So couldn't this be considerably reduced if the urine was separated first, as in 'composting' toilets, and just the solids incinerated, with the urine disposed of at elsan points?

[MtB]

Just now, David Mack said:

Much of the energy consumed by incinerating toilets is surely used to drive off the water content - basically boiling urine. So couldn't this be considerably reduced if the urine was separated first, as in 'composting' toilets, and just the solids incinerated, with the urine disposed of at elsan points?

 

If one is going to the Elsan regularly anyway, it makes more sense to dump the solids in there at the same time rather than burning it. 

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

I once bought a boat that should have had an RCD but didn't. This was not long after the whole RCD scheme was introduced. I approached the builder and asked them to sign an Annex III declaration but they kindly and helpfully told me to go F myself, so I investigated further and discovered yes it is a criminal offence, but prosecutions have to be mounted by Trading Standards, and the Trading Standards dept at the time said yes technically there was an offence but they weren't willing to do anything about it as they had limited resources and frankly they, and I quote, "had bigger fish to fry". 

 

So at that point I just let it drop as like I said above, no-one cares, me included. I only took it that far as the builder had been so obstructive and unpleasant about it. 

The only problem I see with an invalid RCD is that you may limit your market when you come to sell it. Even if the prospective buyer loves it they may still be concerned that they may not be able to sell it on.

[PCSB]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

I once bought a boat that should have had an RCD but didn't. This was not long after the whole RCD scheme was introduced. I approached the builder and asked them to sign an Annex III declaration but they kindly and helpfully told me to go F myself, so I investigated further and discovered yes it is a criminal offence, but prosecutions have to be mounted by Trading Standards, and the Trading Standards dept at the time said yes technically there was an offence but they weren't willing to do anything about it as they had limited resources and frankly they, and I quote, "had bigger fish to fry". 

 

So at that point I just let it drop as like I said above, no-one cares, me included. I only took it that far as the builder had been so obstructive and unpleasant about it. 

Could it cause your insurance to be invalid? I suspect insurance companies would try and claim so.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, PCSB said:

Could it cause your insurance to be invalid? I suspect insurance companies would try and claim so.

 

 

Honestly, what a middle class concern! 

 

Firstly I have no intention of ever needing it, and secondly therefore the only reason I have it is because CRT won't give me a license unless I buy the pointless piece of paper. Or PDF nowadays. 

 

I wonder if Tom Rolt had comprehensive insurance on CRESSY, or if he opted for third party only....

[PCSB]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

Honestly, what a middle class concern! 

 

Firstly I have no intention of ever needing it, and secondly therefore the only reason I have it is because CRT won't give me a license unless I buy the pointless piece of paper. Or PDF nowadays. 

 

I wonder if Tom Rolt had comprehensive insurance on CRESSY, or if he opted for third party only....

Really ?? Oh dear, so sad.

[Morningmist]

55 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The one pitfall that crosses my mind is that you are not allowed to run engines 8pm to 8am. 

 

What is the power consumption of the burner bog (whilst running), i.e. can it run silently from your inverter? A

 

And does it need to run immediately after using the bog, or can it wait until 8am if you used it after 8pm? 

If I understand the sales literature properly, it can be visited on average 12 times before incineration is needed, but it just takes longer to burn.  I don't really want to have to dump anything at the Elsan points, for obvious reasons, I am willing to pay for the convenience of incineration, the Cinderella uses 2kw/ burn. I have 525w of solar,  600amp of battery, 5kw variable speed diesel generator and a 175am engine driven alternator + a 3kw inverter. So far, when I have need to run the generator I am generally looking for stuff to turn on to make it work hard for a time  so as not to just run on tickover.  But if 240v incineration is not acceptable with regard to any regulation or safety issues, I will look at other types of toilet.

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Morningmist said:

If I understand the sales literature properly, it can be visited on average 12 times before incineration is needed, but it just takes longer to burn.  I don't really want to have to dump anything at the Elsan points, for obvious reasons, I am willing to pay for the convenience of incineration, the Cinderella uses 2kw/ burn. I have 525w of solar,  600amp of battery, 5kw variable speed diesel generator and a 175am engine driven alternator + a 3kw inverter. So far, when I have need to run the generator I am generally looking for stuff to turn on to make it work hard for a time  so as not to just run on tickover.  But if 240v incineration is not acceptable with regard to any regulation or safety issues, I will look at other types of toilet.

 

That all sounds fine then.

 

I can't think of any regulation preventing you from having one. Safety issues are really all about installing in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions, without skipping the awkward bits the installer disagrees with. 

[blackrose]

21 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

The only problem I see with an invalid RCD is that you may limit your market when you come to sell it. Even if the prospective buyer loves it they may still be concerned that they may not be able to sell it on.

 

Yes exactly. It might just be a bit bureaucracy to be ignored by an owner because nobody is likely to get prosecuted, but that might change come sale time if prospective buyers and their surveyors pick up on it and are put off.

Edited August 29, 2021 by blackrose

[blackrose]

19 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Honestly, what a middle class concern! 

 

Firstly I have no intention of ever needing it, and secondly therefore the only reason I have it is because CRT won't give me a license unless I buy the pointless piece of paper. Or PDF nowadays. 

 

I wonder if Tom Rolt had comprehensive insurance on CRESSY, or if he opted for third party only....

 

I don't think many people take out insurance with the intention of ever needing it, but shit happens as they say...

 

If one's insurance is invalidated for some reason, it might not be a concern for oneself but it might be a concern any third party involved, whether they be middle class or otherwise. In that respect it makes no difference if the policy is fully comprehensive or third party only.

[cuthound]

On 28/08/2021 at 11:12, Morningmist said:

Regarding fitting a Cinderella Incineration toilet and whether a 240v model would comply with BSS  or any other regulations.

I have recently finisher a 3-year fit out of my narrow boat, which I now live on as a continual cruiser.  At the 2018 Crick boat show, I was introduced to the Separett Composting toilet and was impressed, but before purchasing I went to the CRT tent and enquired about its suitability for use on the cut.  I spoke to a number of CRT people before being passed onto someone who 'knew' and was advised that I could bag and bin. So given the facts, I went ahead and fitted the Separett into my 90k new floating home. (build the first for your enemy, the second for your friend and the third for your self)  Given that now being the owner of a bin and bag toilet I am one of the lowest forms of life on the planet, I am looking at changing my toilet. (I've only been on the boat 7 weeks.)  IDO NOT WANT TO START A DEBATE ABOUT COMPOSTING TOILETS, It's ALL GOING ON ANOTHER DISCUSSION, Noor do I want to debate about the amount of gas/ energy a Cinderella can use. I have a 5kw generator, power is not a problem, but a 240v appliance in a shower room does make me a little uneasy. The blurb on the Cinderella says it's suitable for a shower room as it's got an ip34 rating  and that on independent tests it has no live part can be touched!! But before I part with another 4k I just would really like to know of any hidden pitfalls regarding any regulations. My vessel is a self build as such I have no RDC on the vessel. 

 

An IP34 rating is only tolerant of splashes of water.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code

 

Although not required under the RCD or BSS I would try to apply the IET Wiring Regulations BS7671 requirements for mains electricity in a bathroom, as these try to ensure a minimum separation distance between water, wet people and electrcial supllies. However this may prove difficult, if not impossible given the small size of bathrooms on typical boats.

 

https://www.vent-axia.com/legislation/bathroom-regulations

Edited September 3, 2021 by cuthound
Clarification

[Morningmist]

Our walk through wet room is quite large for a narrow boat (70ft)  being 7ft long, the distance between the shower area and the loo is approximately 700 mm.  I understand that this would put the loo in zone 3. 

Given all the very helpful advice given on this site, I am coming to the conclusion that fitting a 240 v appliance in any sort of bathroom on a boat is not really such a good idea, so its back to the option of a cassette or a pump out.    Thank you all, for your advice and guidance, I am very grateful for helping me make a decision.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Morningmist said:

so its back to the option of a cassette or a pump out. 

Now that is controversial!

[Tracy D'arth]

On 28/08/2021 at 11:12, Morningmist said:

Regarding fitting a Cinderella Incineration toilet and whether a 240v model would comply with BSS  or any other regulations.

I have recently finisher a 3-year fit out of my narrow boat, which I now live on as a continual cruiser.  At the 2018 Crick boat show, I was introduced to the Separett Composting toilet and was impressed, but before purchasing I went to the CRT tent and enquired about its suitability for use on the cut.  I spoke to a number of CRT people before being passed onto someone who 'knew' and was advised that I could bag and bin. So given the facts, I went ahead and fitted the Separett into my 90k new floating home. (build the first for your enemy, the second for your friend and the third for your self)  Given that now being the owner of a bin and bag toilet I am one of the lowest forms of life on the planet, I am looking at changing my toilet. (I've only been on the boat 7 weeks.)  IDO NOT WANT TO START A DEBATE ABOUT COMPOSTING TOILETS, It's ALL GOING ON ANOTHER DISCUSSION, Noor do I want to debate about the amount of gas/ energy a Cinderella can use. I have a 5kw generator, power is not a problem, but a 240v appliance in a shower room does make me a little uneasy. The blurb on the Cinderella says it's suitable for a shower room as it's got an ip34 rating  and that on independent tests it has no live part can be touched!! But before I part with another 4k I just would really like to know of any hidden pitfalls regarding any regulations. My vessel is a self build as such I have no RDC on the vessel. 

I would be surprised if IP34 was enough for a wet room with a decent shower.

[Nicko-larse]

This is my first post on the forum so bear with me. Not sure if this info is around anywhere else but anyway...

 

Me and my girlfriend have been continuously cruising on our new build widebeam for 1.5 years with a cinderella motion 12v gas toilet in the bathroom. Thought I'd chip in here with my info about using the toilet. My overall thoughts about the toilet are its great, if you can afford it go for it. It's obviously more expensive than other styles of loo but we are happy to pay for the convenience and cleanliness. I have 4x 100ah Leoch batteries, and a gas locker that holds 4x 13kg bottles. We go through about 1 bottle every 2 weeks, so thats toilet use and cooking use. Obviously working from home has pushed this usage up and considering we got our boat just before lockdown 2 we have no idea otherwise. The toilet is recommended not to be used more that 4 times in an hour. The toilet bags that cost £45 per box last roughly 4 months. Every time you flush the toilet it starts the burn cycle which last 45 minutes, a series of low power burns and cooling by the sounds of it. The fan is a bit noisy but not too bad, just another noise on the boat. You don't have to flush straight away, for example if in the evening we are low on power and its past 8pm just leave it till the morning, then start the engine when you get up and flush. Never a problem in summer with solar. Battery power consumption wise it seems fine, but I don't know any different. We run our engine for probably 2-3 hours a day in the depths of winter and in summer our solar covers everything. We have a porta pottie in the cupboard just incase of emergencies, we used it once when we forgot to order toilet bags! Durr.

 

 

Hope that gives a bit of info to people who need it, happy to answer any questions.

 

 

 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Nicko-larse said:

This is my first post on the forum so bear with me. Not sure if this info is around anywhere else but anyway...

 

Me and my girlfriend have been continuously cruising on our new build widebeam for 1.5 years with a cinderella motion 12v gas toilet in the bathroom. Thought I'd chip in here with my info about using the toilet. My overall thoughts about the toilet are its great, if you can afford it go for it. It's obviously more expensive than other styles of loo but we are happy to pay for the convenience and cleanliness. I have 4x 100ah Leoch batteries, and a gas locker that holds 4x 13kg bottles. We go through about 1 bottle every 2 weeks, so thats toilet use and cooking use. Obviously working from home has pushed this usage up and considering we got our boat just before lockdown 2 we have no idea otherwise. The toilet is recommended not to be used more that 4 times in an hour. The toilet bags that cost £45 per box last roughly 4 months. Every time you flush the toilet it starts the burn cycle which last 45 minutes, a series of low power burns and cooling by the sounds of it. The fan is a bit noisy but not too bad, just another noise on the boat. You don't have to flush straight away, for example if in the evening we are low on power and its past 8pm just leave it till the morning, then start the engine when you get up and flush. Never a problem in summer with solar. Battery power consumption wise it seems fine, but I don't know any different. We run our engine for probably 2-3 hours a day in the depths of winter and in summer our solar covers everything. We have a porta pottie in the cupboard just incase of emergencies, we used it once when we forgot to order toilet bags! Durr.

 

 

Hope that gives a bit of info to people who need it, happy to answer any questions.

 

 

 

So do you know how much of the gas the toilet uses?

 

Roughly £20 per week (half a 13kg bottle) for gas just for cooking and toilet is one hell of a lot, and I suspect the vast majority is being used by the toilet...