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Commercial Passenger Boat skippers - how good are they?


Wanderer Vagabond

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3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I too am under the impression that train drivers are paid a whole lot more than airline pilots.

I had a quick Google and you're both correct. After a few years in post, both pilots and train drivers are about equal, in earnings, which surprised me.

 

Howard

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14 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I find your comments quite educational. In my naivete I had always assumed that these were professional boatmen but now it seems that they are 'professional' only in terms of the fact that they are paid to do the job, the reality is they can be as good or bad as any hire boater. This surprises me since one of the principal criticisms coming out of the Marchioness/Bowbelle disaster report was certain lack of seamanship skills accredited to both vessels. Having read the report, and noting the failure of the prosecution of the skipper of Bowbelle, I would tend to put more blame on the skippering of the Marchionesse although, since the skipper didn't survive the disaster, this is probably slightly unfair. My reasoning for this would be that, whilst it is the duty of the overtaking vessel (Bowbelle) to keep clear, it hinders their chances somewhat if the overtaken vessel (Marchioness) turns to port into their path, which is apparently what happened. It seems that the result of the disaster report concentrated on dealing with such disasters in the future (recording the number of passengers aboard, action plan for the Met Police on how to deal with it) rather than address the failure in seamanship skills that actually led to the disaster (failure to have proper look-out).

Now realising that the standard that they are trained to isn't that high (despite the fact that they are carrying people rather than cargo) I will now treat them accordingly.

:unsure: 

The qualifications and requirements for Proffesional Boatmen ( i.e. Skippers of boats with paying passengers etc) are laid down by the Maritime & Coastguard Agency ( MCA).    Whilst some people might disagree with the term 'professional' to gain the necessary qualifications you need to invest in time as well as money and at least be doing it on a fairly regular ( i.e. Seasonal) basis.  

 

Requiremebts this are laid out under the governing regulations ( MSN 1853(M) ).  MSN1853_Complete.pdf

If there is any close quarters or possible dangerous situation, not just with commercial craft, then report the facts to the Responcible Port ( or navigation )Authority and also to the MAIB    

 

However treating other boat boat users with mistrust is a very sensible thing todo. A good example is where the USN Warship 'Fitzgerald' was involved in the collision with the container ship in the south China Seas   The OOW on the merchant ship assumed that the billion dollar warship with a crew of 250 would abide by the ColRegs, however he was also at fault as he should have performed action to avoid collision him self when it was apparent that the 'grey funnel line' wasn't doing so herself

 

ok maybe a slightly rose tinted view from my perch on a bridge wing here! 

 

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6 hours ago, howardang said:

I had a quick Google and you're both correct. After a few years in post, both pilots and train drivers are about equal, in earnings, which surprised me.

 

Howard

To a certain point, then the earnings of a pilot, particularly if flying for a large national carrier, will substantially increase.  

 

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/train-driver-salary-SRCH_KO0,12.htm

 

 

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I find it best to keep well out of the way of ships and commercial boats .

They seem always to act as if they have  right of way over any leisure boat . Therefore it is easier to let them have that right rather than to risk any conflict.

In some circumstances the ship  will be confined to a channel by draft in which case you, as the more manoeuvrable vessel, must take this into account .

 

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18 hours ago, Dharl said:

depends on your boat as well as experience of skipper and crew!    The Thames Clippers on the Tidal stretch manage without having to stem the tide.    When I was skipper on a survey / dive ship on our regular berth you had to have a stern fetch often when mooring.   Having big twin screw engines and competent deck hands was an advantage and I wouldn't attempt that on Honeystreet, well not with that particular tideway anyway :) 

 

Yes, well I was talking about an 1890s 90ft Thames steam launch, not a Thames Clipper or survey/dive ship with big twin screw engines. It was only because of the actions of the crew that the boat wasn't damaged.

Edited by blackrose
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1 hour ago, Dharl said:

The qualifications and requirements for Proffesional Boatmen ( i.e. Skippers of boats with paying passengers etc) are laid down by the Maritime & Coastguard Agency ( MCA).    Whilst some people might disagree with the term 'professional' to gain the necessary qualifications you need to invest in time as well as money and at least be doing it on a fairly regular ( i.e. Seasonal) basis.  

 

If the standard of qualifications and requirements of the MCA for Professional Boatmen are anything like the standard of the safety tests they regularly conduct on passenger boats, then what I've personally witnessed while helping them didn't fill me with confidence. Apart from the stability tests they conduct almost everything else in respect to safety was overlooked. A basic BSS inspection that we have conducted on our boats is more thorough!

Edited by blackrose
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10 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Yes, well I was talking about an 1890s 90ft Thames steam launch, not a Thames Clipper or survey/dive ship with big twin screw engines

true, but also depends a lot on the skills and competency of the crew involved.    

 

 

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

If the standard of qualifications and requirements of the MCA for Professional Boatmen are anything like the standard of the safety tests they regularly conduct on passenger boats then what I've personally witnessed while helping them didn't fill me with confidence. Apart from the stability tests they conduct almost everything else in respect to safety was overlooked. The standard of a basic BSS inspection that we have conducted on our boats is more thorough!

Have you read through the requirements needed to gain the qualifications (different depending on the stretch of water I grant you) ?    Are you qualified to judge how and safety test is conducted?    I can assure you that the flag requirements for a commercial vessel are a lot more vigorous then they are for the BSS.       

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Totally off topic, but out of curiosity, who trained you as an ADI Tim?

9 hours ago, howardang said:

I had a quick Google and you're both correct. After a few years in post, both pilots and train drivers are about equal, in earnings, which surprised me.

 

Howard

The current batch of recruits being trained to drive the new Virgin Azuma trains on the ECML will start on £57,000.

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49 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

The current batch of recruits being trained to drive the new Virgin Azuma trains on the ECML will start on £57,000.

is that for experinced drivers moving to Virgin and being trained on their equipmemnt or brand new drivers with no previous experience?

 

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41 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Totally off topic, but out of curiosity, who trained you as an ADI Tim?

The current batch of recruits being trained to drive the new Virgin Azuma trains on the ECML will start on £57,000.

I did my ADI course in Cornwall under a guy called Mike Roscoe and another ADI. I think this thread is showing that most people don't understand that nearly all training is carried out by private individuals and not government agencies and many people have no clue about legislation. As a quick for instance you need to be a qualified DSA ADI to train someone as a learner driver ( for money ) but you need no such qualification to train a HGV driver and as another for instance many of the people who train people in caravan towing with their car have no training qualifications whatsoever. Training will differ massively between many of the boat operaters be it in London or elsewhere. I was trained re col regs and a huge amount of other stuff including the boat itself. The test by the mca skipper was very thorough and started with over an hour simply questioning me on just about everything other than Brexit and then about 2 hours handling the boat in a varied set of circumstances. The first boatmaster I took on a narrowboat was much much less thorough but its horses for courses. Also in EVERY walk of life people do every single job at differing abilities no matter what the job is and its no difference with boats. Some people deliberately do their damndest to learn and actualy pass for instance their basic car driving test and as soon as its done drive like Richard Craniums for ever after, we all see them daily on the roads so is that the fault of the driving test bod? no it aint. Same with boats and anything else some pass the test then don't give two hoots. I have to say all the boatmasters I worked with did their best and on occasion messed up just like every one else in the human race.

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

 The test by the mca skipper was very thorough and started with over an hour simply questioning me on just about everything other than Brexit

My MCA Boatmaster licence, which I have subsequently allowed to lapse due to my age was only for canal (and river Weaver) use.  I downloaded something like 3 pages of bullet points of areas to be covered by oral questioning during the test.

I was surprised, but not defeated, by being questioned on EVERY bullet point.  I had expected something like the driving test, where sample questions on the Highway Code were asked!

George

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3 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

My MCA Boatmaster licence, which I have subsequently allowed to lapse due to my age was only for canal (and river Weaver) use.  I downloaded something like 3 pages of bullet points of areas to be covered by oral questioning during the test.

I was surprised, but not defeated, by being questioned on EVERY bullet point.  I had expected something like the driving test, where sample questions on the Highway Code were asked!

George

Yes me too. It was a very thorough test indeed. The Princess has eight watertight compartments and I had to know exactly what was in each one and exactly what kind and the location of all 21 fire extingushers and where each hose reel could reach and each emergency pump etc etc etc and electrical equipment and loads of stuff. I also had to show all our pre sailing checks in real time including what checks we did of all three engines. The training never stops and the boats and paperwork are checked yearly and whichever skipper that accompanies the mca inspector is questioned regarding his/her knowledge to see if they have kept up to date.

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2 hours ago, furnessvale said:

My MCA Boatmaster licence, which I have subsequently allowed to lapse due to my age was only for canal (and river Weaver) use.  I downloaded something like 3 pages of bullet points of areas to be covered by oral questioning during the test.

I was surprised, but not defeated, by being questioned on EVERY bullet point.  I had expected something like the driving test, where sample questions on the Highway Code were asked!

George

Likewise I have a (now expired) Boatmaster Licence, for all navigable, non tidal waters. The training took place over a six month period, requiring me to undertake supervised steering etc of at least six hours a week, plus a number of theory sessions which included Navigation Rules, Fire and Rescue training, and Adult First Aid. The examination, both practical and oral questioning was undertaken with one other trainee, and took over six hours. Like George, I was impressed with the demanding quality of the questioning. It was far more demanding and thorough than I remember my driving test to be.

Edited by David Schweizer
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22 hours ago, Dharl said:

is that for experinced drivers moving to Virgin and being trained on their equipmemnt or brand new drivers with no previous experience?

 

From the article I read this is for new drivers who have been recruited from all walks of life. There were literally thousands of applications for the 75 or so posts (which, with that sort of salary, is hardly surprising). For some time now the railway industry has been recruiting its new drivers outwith the traditional areas.

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22 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I did my ADI course in Cornwall under a guy called Mike Roscoe and another ADI. I think this thread is showing that most people don't understand that nearly all training is carried out by private individuals and not government agencies and many people have no clue about legislation. As a quick for instance you need to be a qualified DSA ADI to train someone as a learner driver ( for money ) but you need no such qualification to train a HGV driver and as another for instance many of the people who train people in caravan towing with their car have no training qualifications whatsoever. Training will differ massively between many of the boat operaters be it in London or elsewhere. I was trained re col regs and a huge amount of other stuff including the boat itself. The test by the mca skipper was very thorough and started with over an hour simply questioning me on just about everything other than Brexit and then about 2 hours handling the boat in a varied set of circumstances. The first boatmaster I took on a narrowboat was much much less thorough but its horses for courses. Also in EVERY walk of life people do every single job at differing abilities no matter what the job is and its no difference with boats. Some people deliberately do their damndest to learn and actualy pass for instance their basic car driving test and as soon as its done drive like Richard Craniums for ever after, we all see them daily on the roads so is that the fault of the driving test bod? no it aint. Same with boats and anything else some pass the test then don't give two hoots. I have to say all the boatmasters I worked with did their best and on occasion messed up just like every one else in the human race.

I can only agree with everything you've said about training Tim. I regard myself as a professional trainer (having been trained as one over a period of nearly a year back in 1977/78) and also enjoy being the subject of good training which I've experienced from such diverse sources as BSM (when I trained as an ADI some 16 years ago) through to the trainers in the Apple store in Glasgow. These were/are fifty-something-year-olds with 30+ years 'industrial' experience under their belts + first class training on how to share these skills, from the Apple organisation. In both instances the principle employed is based on Q and A. My first training role was in land based industries which included forestry and chainsaw use. As they say, there's no such thing as a minor chainsaw accident!

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10 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

As they say, there's no such thing as a minor chainsaw accident!

I disagree...

I dropped mine on my toe while sharpening teeth, after a minute of jumping up and down with colourful language it was forgotten

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10 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

From the article I read this is for new drivers who have been recruited from all walks of life. There were literally thousands of applications for the 75 or so posts (which, with that sort of salary, is hardly surprising). For some time now the railway industry has been recruiting its new drivers outwith the traditional areas.

I remember as an 18 year old seeing an advert in the paper for trainee drivers for Network South East based out of Bournemouth where I lived.    It was offering a very good wage once trained up (about £40k if I remember back in 1994) so I called up for more info and they had closed the lines within 12hrs of the paper going to press due to the high numbers of people calling!

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10 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

From the article I read this is for new drivers who have been recruited from all walks of life. There were literally thousands of applications for the 75 or so posts (which, with that sort of salary, is hardly surprising). For some time now the railway industry has been recruiting its new drivers outwith the traditional areas.

The trainers are not paid as well as the drivers.  I know one very experienced  trainer who is going back to driving trains soon, even though he will lose his M-F 9-4.30 hours and do 2am starts on the early and 2am finishes on the latest,  over a 7 day rolling rota as the money is so much better.

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56 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The trainers are not paid as well as the drivers.  I know one very experienced  trainer who is going back to driving trains soon, even though he will lose his M-F 9-4.30 hours and do 2am starts on the early and 2am finishes on the latest,  over a 7 day rolling rota as the money is so much better.

That is one of the reasons the money is good

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