Basis setting out questions regarding vintage/classic engines

[GRLMK38]

Nice, did you go to great lengths to find the coordinated throttle cable?

[Mike Hurley]

2 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I would be looking for second hand but a vintage engine in a newish hull would be fine

Whilton have a 58 foot trad, 1997 with a Rushton Hornby 2VTH for sale, boat is called Dot. Reeves hull.

[Tony Brooks]

4 hours ago, mark99 said:

You can buy a new boat with vintage engine. Plenty of newish 2nd hand boats with vintage engines come up for sale. My boat is 2007 with a 50 year old engine in it.

 

Not sure for how much longer, probably only months. The RCD is changing to make all new boat engines and engines in boats where there has been major work done be required to conform to the latest emission standards. I very much doubt even a new "vintage" engine will comply.

I think they are also tightening up on the DIY loophole as well.

[Athy]

It won't affect the O.P. who will be seeking a second-hand craft, but is it not the case that "replicas" are exempted from these new regulations? Of course, there will be debate on what constitutes a "replica"; if, for example, Brinklow build a near-perfect copy of a 1930s working hull, as I believe they are well capable of doing, but put a full-length cabin on it, then will it count as a replica?

[GRLMK38]

11 minutes ago, Athy said:

It won't affect the O.P. who will be seeking a second-hand craft, but is it not the case that "replicas" are exempted from these new regulations? Of course, there will be debate on what constitutes a "replica"; if, for example, Brinklow build a near-perfect copy of a 1930s working hull, as I believe they are well capable of doing, but put a full-length cabin on it, then will it count as a replica?

If a builder uses some original parts from an old "scrap" boat (with a valid registration number) to build a new replica, is it a new boat or a fully restored old one?

[Athy]

14 minutes ago, GRLMK38 said:

If a builder uses some original parts from an old "scrap" boat (with a valid registration number) to build a new replica, is it a new boat or a fully restored old one?

I think Tony's post no.28 answers that, unfortunately. Bloody spoilsports.

[GRLMK38]

56 minutes ago, Athy said:

I think Tony's post no.28 answers that, unfortunately. Bloody spoilsports.

Mmm ... the very same people that are about to impose turbo diesels on us

How long before stop/start is introduced?

Edited August 4, 2017 by GRLMK38
Additional Comment

[zenataomm]

I remember asking a surveyor about this when it was first mentioned about 12 years ago.

His response was ......

"History is well sprinkled with poorly thought through ideas from bureaucrats, the only way I can see emissions being tested on a wet exhaust is by putting a condom over the probe."

[noddyboater]

A variation on the traditional back cabin which works well if you're tall is a length ways bed in a longer room. You still get the stove, table cupboard and short side bed but then a full size double, usually four poster style. WFBC and Brinklow have built boats like this, with conventional propshafts or hydraulic drive. It also puts a bit more space between the steerer and engine/exhaust, handy if it's one of those nasty air cooled listers.. 

[mark99]

Mine =  61.9" boat. With 2LW engine room and seperate bog/shower room.

Trad back cabin (double), "fixed" double or Pullman Diner in middle and front has  Cabin Living room plus set up for up full width double. Total 6 berths if needed. Also decent front well deck length.

If you have any interest in older engines, scrub out the want for a modern, boring, ugly and horrible, bland sounding modern diesel cloned borefest.

If you want to feel what real cold is and what Billy "no mates" <when not warm outside> feels like, buy a Cruiser Stern.

If you are indecsisive, buy a "semi trad" and be never fully happy at any time. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by mark99

[MtB]

9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not sure for how much longer, probably only months. The RCD is changing to make all new boat engines and engines in boats where there has been major work done be required to conform to the latest emission standards. I very much doubt even a new "vintage" engine will comply.

I think they are also tightening up on the DIY loophole as well.

 

Which raises an interesting point.

Good boats with vintage engines are much the same price as boats with modern engines currently. I suspect this will change and as time passes, vintage-engined modern boats will turn out to have appreciated in value enormously. With the benefit of hindsight turn out to have been a stonking good investment right now.

I'm off to buy another right now. 

 

Well ok tomorrow, as its a bit late right now...

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[mark99]

9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not sure for how much longer, probably only months. The RCD is changing to make all new boat engines and engines in boats where there has been major work done be required to conform to the latest emission standards. I very much doubt even a new "vintage" engine will comply.

I think they are also tightening up on the DIY loophole as well.

 

Can we see your source linked  please?

[36national]

if your original post means are you paying a premium to own a boat with a vintage diesel then i think probably not.

Look at brokers websites, such boats tend to move slowly, coz not many people want them. The boats that sell quickly are the more modern, cruiser stern, ideally suited for a week out with the family type boats hence the old chestnut "something is only worth what someone else is prepared to pay for it."   Peeps buy vintage diesels coz they love em, but the market is limited, knowing that it could ultimately be a cripplingly costly / ruinously expensive / ultimately impossible task to fix em if something goes badly wrong. Many people can't be bothered with that kinda grief.    Swap my "suck, squeeze, bang, blow " for an izzzzzzuzzzzzzzzuuuuuuuu   id rather die.  When i was looking at boats i thought i just wanted a boat. Then I looked at a boat with a Lister JP2 and my parameters changed. If you want to watch some engine porn type "ecco narrowboat gardner engine" into youtube.

[LEO]

7 minutes ago, 36national said:

if your original post means are you paying a premium to own a boat with a vintage diesel then i think probably not.

Look at brokers websites, such boats tend to move slowly, coz not many people want them. The boats that sell quickly are the more modern, cruiser stern, ideally suited for a week out with the family type boats hence the old chestnut "something is only worth what someone else is prepared to pay for it."   Peeps buy vintage diesels coz they love em, but the market is limited, knowing that it could ultimately be a cripplingly costly / ruinously expensive / ultimately impossible task to fix em if something goes badly wrong. Many people can't be bothered with that kinda grief.    Swap my "suck, squeeze, bang, blow " for an izzzzzzuzzzzzzzzuuuuuuuu   id rather die.  When i was looking at boats i thought i just wanted a boat. Then I looked at a boat with a Lister JP2 and my parameters changed. If you want to watch some engine porn type "ecco narrowboat gardner engine" into youtube.

Agree, some video, some boat.........................vintage for me! (2LW) - suggest OP waits until he comes over and hires a boat and looks at some boats with vintage engines........he will have to improve his Brasso skills if he get a vintage unit - his small engines need a polish..............

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, mark99 said:

 

Can we see your source linked  please?

I read it in the mag (Canal Boat) but would not have put so much store by it unless I had read other reports about its progress through the system so ! knew it was on the cards.

17 hours ago, zenataomm said:

I remember asking a surveyor about this when it was first mentioned about 12 years ago.

His response was ......

"History is well sprinkled with poorly thought through ideas from bureaucrats, the only way I can see emissions being tested on a wet exhaust is by putting a condom over the probe."

It will not need a surveyor or anyone else at the users end to do an emissions check and more than it does when you buy a new car.  It will go by the manufacturer's emissions checks done in accordance with the regulations.

[alan_fincher]

17 hours ago, noddyboater said:

A variation on the traditional back cabin which works well if you're tall is a length ways bed in a longer room. You still get the stove, table cupboard and short side bed but then a full size double, usually four poster style. WFBC and Brinklow have built boats like this, with conventional propshafts or hydraulic drive. It also puts a bit more space between the steerer and engine/exhaust, handy if it's one of those nasty air cooled listers.. 

Depends what you are after, but boats with an artificially increased back cabin that then sets the engine room too far forward can look pretty unconvincing.

It maybe one thing to add (say) an extra foot to get a 4' wide cross bed rather than a 3' wide cross bed, but keeping the standard features, but having over 6' of linear bed would make everything at least 3 feet longer than is normal.  This would look pretty strange on the outside, plus if you use a conventional propshaft you will have  up to 12 feet of your total cabin space with very restricted headroom.

There's nothing nasty about an air cooled Lister if it has had a proper restoration, and is well maintained.  Any old engine is not nice to be behind if it has not.

What is it you seek to be separated from - noise or smoke?  In either case 3 feet extra will likely make bugger all difference, I would say.

Edited August 5, 2017 by alan_fincher

[Mick in Bangkok]

Well I have taken all the advice and comments on board and also browsed some U tube postings and boats for sale and now better acquainted with the traditional lay out I can see the attraction of the boatman’s cabin as well as the engine room.

I have also been looking at the canals that the longer boats cannot navigate and although I have still to set foot on a narrow boat I am certainly leaning towards a 70ft trad with engine room.

The downside is that my budget now needs to be thoroughly revisited as the boats in this category seem to have a hefty price tag.

Cheers Mick

[Athy]

I think Noddy was joking about the "nasty" bit.

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, Athy said:

I think Noddy was joking about the "nasty" bit.

 

I don;t think so. Air cooled Listers are authentic but they are charmless and dull engines to have in a boat, in my personal opinion. Gardners, Rustons, Kelvins, JPs etc are an order of magnitude nicer and more interesting to live with even though not particularly (if at all!) authentic.

In fact 'authenticity', and perhaps reliability are the main thing air cooled Listers have in their favour. 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[alan_fincher]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don;t think so. Air cooled Listers may be authentic they are charmless and dull engines to have on a boat, in my opinion. Gardners, Rustons, Kelvins, JPs etc are an order of magnitude nicer and much more interesting to live with.

In fact 'authenticity' is about the only thing they have in their favour. 

It's a view, but not one I concur with.

All the evocative memories I retain of real working boats actually at work relate to air cooled units, be it Petters, Listers or Armstrongs - usually twins, but the occasional triple.  I'm too young to remember serious actual use or water cooled types.

Personally I think all are just as interesting, and I'm just as keen to see them at work at the shows as I am the Bolinders, RNs and Nationals. (Not many Gardners, Kelvins or Rustons in genuine ex working boats, of course, for the reason there were hardly any of those when they were working - a shame to lumber a real boat with history with an engine it wouled never have had whist in use, IMO).

Our Listers are constantly admired from the bank or other passing boats, though many self proclaimed "experts" are surprised to find they are Listers, often having stated they are sure they are something much older.

To me the only downside of an H series Lister in a boat with full cabin accommodation, is that it can't be used to heat the domestic water.  However as many boats that have vintage water cooled lumps are raw water cooled, it is worth giving up the hot water in a knowledge that you will never arrive at the boat to find a cracked cylinder block, because you had assumed  there couldn't be any bad freeze ups before you were able to get there again.

Arguably a Petter PD2 or an Armstrong AS2 is an even better sounding engine than an HA2, but several people suggest when they hear ours that it must be an Armstrong, so I get a good sounding engine without having either of  the types where spares are damn near unavailable!

Remind me what your "much nicer to live with" engines in Reg have cost you, and why you are not currently  living with them!

[Heffalump]

32 minutes ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

The downside is that my budget now needs to be thoroughly revisited as the boats in this category seem to have a hefty price tag.

 

This is where I'm stuck too

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Remind me what your "much nicer to live with" engines in Reg have cost you, and why you are not currently  living with them!

 

I've no idea. I haven't had a bill from Richard for a while now!

[MtB]

The Gleniffer is however, coming along nicely now...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Peter-Bullfinch]

One aspect of a traditional engine is the exhaust stack height. Many i see are very short and the gas seems to be in the steerers face. 

To get under most bridges ours is 39 inches high including the deflecting hoop  which is about 8 foot 3 inches above the water line. It does however hinge at about 14 hinges by means of an old door hinge and one of my grandma's cooking scales weights as a counterbalance plus a length of cord to pull it all down under the occaisional low bridge.

This all keeps the exhaust well above our heads as we steer.

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, Peter-Bullfinch said:

One aspect of a traditional engine is the exhaust stack height. Many i see are very short and the gas seems to be in the steerers face. 

To get under most bridges ours is 39 inches high including the deflecting hoop  which is about 8 foot 3 inches above the water line. It does however hinge at about 14 hinges by means of an old door hinge and one of my grandma's cooking scales weights as a counterbalance plus a length of cord to pull it all down under the occaisional low bridge.

This all keeps the exhaust well above our heads as we steer.

A class act, P-B - though it looks as if from time to time someone forgot to pull it down before a bridge!

Thanks for the term "deflecting hoop". We have one of these on Trojan, but I have never been sure of its proper name. I have heard either "cutter" or "splitter" used, probably the former actually, as the latter tends to refer to a plastic boat.