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Recreational Craft Directive


Bruv

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21 minutes ago, Midnight said:

I fitted my boat out and craned it in, in August 2004 - does the EU law say I need an RCD if I was to sell it?

No, if a boat is not built to the RCD requirements, then it shouldn't be placed on the EU market until it is 5 years old.

If it is built to RCD requirements,  then it can be placed on the market at any age.

So you can sell your boat without infrigingredients the RCD requirements because it is more than 5 years old.

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On 23/07/2017 at 13:37, cuthound said:

No, if a boat is not built to the RCD requirements, then it shouldn't be placed on the EU market until it is 5 years old.

If it is built to RCD requirements,  then it can be placed on the market at any age.

So you can sell your boat without infrigingredients the RCD requirements because it is more than 5 years old.

 

A most excellent new word you've invented there. What does it mean??

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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A most excellent new word you've invented there. What does it mean??

Don't know, you will have to ask my autocorrect! I wote infringing, but keeps adding another part of a word (possibly ingredients) when I post. Very frustrating :mellow:

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I agree the market Bruv will be selling into will be much reduced but I'm not sure the price will be badly affected

The last boat I purchased had the RCD and the VAT paid certificate 'missing' - I managed to negotiate almost £100,000 off the asking price because the necessary paperwork was absent.

It is important to some folks.

(Some people will use any excuse to negotiate a 'good price')

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Reminded me in fact of the attitude HMRC take to diesel fuel usage proportion declarations. A waste of effort imposed on us by the EEC.

With a bit of luck they wont be imposing crap on us for much longer.

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7 hours ago, cuthound said:

Depends on the buyer. Certainly when I was looking to buy a boat, I wanted an RCD compliant one, so that I had some reassurance that the services had been installed to a standard.

However I accept that I may not be a typical buyer, because I have spent all of my working life having to comply with standards, so I am aware of relevant standards and feel more comfortable with things that comply to them.

Given that the OP has tried to comply with the RCD it seems that he can self certify for very little extra effort and remove the risk of being forced to significantly reduce his asking price.

I would point out that for a Cat D boat - inland waterways - the RCD is just self cert and so the compliance is only as good as the knowledge/honesty of the people doing the fit-out.  There isn't even any form of 3rd party audit of boat manufacturers to confirm their know-how and compliance etc.  

For example my boat was CIN/HIN marked by the shell builder - one of the more reputable ones - and they clearly don't understand the structure of the CIN/HIN as it does not comply with the standard, I asked them about this and they said that was how they marked all their shells/boats.  It is a good boat so I am happy.

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A cautionary note for the OP:  the RCD requires compliance with several (many if you are pedantic) BS/EN/ISO standards.  The RCD is more than a document, it is a quality assurance system incorporating confirmation of compliance (which may be by self-certification).  

I did my own RCD ten years ago.  A large part of my engineering career involved writing technical documents and checking compliance, so sourcing the Standards, interpreting and complying with the requirements, and then documenting the whole thing was relatively straightforward for me, but I doubt it would be for most folk.

Another point - some of the RCD requirements cannot be achieved by copying someone else's documents because they require calculations for your particular vessel, including for example stability calculations.

.............. but as has been suggested, nobody is likely to check (unless something goes wrong of course).

 

  

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On 23/07/2017 at 21:19, Murflynn said:

 

.............. but as has been suggested, nobody is likely to check (unless something goes wrong of course).

 

In which case its better to have sold it honestly (if illegally) without a RCD ticket, than with a frigged one where the boxes are all ticked without actually doing the heavy lifting to ensure it really does comply with all the relevant standards and the stability calculations are correct. 

So you have the Annex III declaration signed by the shell builder?  I think this is the starting point and without it you are stuffed (IIRC). On the brighter side I think the stability calcs are done by the shell builder not you, for them to issue the A3 declaration.

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9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

On the brighter side I think the stability calcs are done by the shell builder not you

I'm not sure that this is correct - how can a shell builder do the stability tests with an un-ballasted shell, and before extra un-balanced weight of fitting out, furniture etc is fitted.

I believe it is a 'finished' test and consists of (amongst other tests) weight (certain number of people) standing on one side and the angle of heel being measured.

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On 23/07/2017 at 21:59, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm not sure that this is correct - how can a shell builder do the stability tests with an un-ballasted shell, and before extra un-balanced weight of fitting out, furniture etc is fitted.

I believe it is a 'finished' test and consists of (amongst other tests) weight (certain number of people) standing on one side and the angle of heel being measured.

 

Happy to stand corrected. It was a long time ago I investigated doing my own!

I still have it fixed in my mind there are some calcs of some sort to be put in the A3 declaration by the shell builder, but its too much of a ball-ache to look it up on a Sunday night...

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11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I still have it fixed in my mind there are some calcs of some sort to be put in the A3 declaration by the shell builder

It is the manufacturer’s responsibility to recommend the maximum load weight based on experience and any relevant design considerations.  This recommended figure is required to be verified by the stability and buoyancy tests of BS EN ISO 12217:2013 and should be included in the Owner’s Manual, together with an explanation of its significance and the safety implications of exceeding it.
BS EN ISO 14946:2001 states that the maximum load shall include the weight of the following:
 a) The number of persons at 75 kg each (for adults - where children are carried as part of   the crew a child’s mass shall be taken as 37.5 kg)
B) Basic equipment of (LH – 2.5)2, but not less than 10 kg,
 c) Stores and cargo (if any), dry provisions, consumable liquids and miscellaneous    equipment not  included in the light craft mass or in clause b above,
 d)  Consumable liquids (fresh water, fuel) in portable tanks filled to the maximum capacity, 
 e) Consumable liquids (fresh water, fuel) of permanently installed tanks filled to the   maximum capacity,
 f) A liferaft or dinghy when intended to be carried.

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10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is the manufacturer’s responsibility to recommend the maximum load weight based on experience and any relevant design considerations.  This recommended figure is required to be verified by the stability and buoyancy tests of BS EN ISO 12217:2013 and should be included in the Owner’s Manual, together with an explanation of its significance and the safety implications of exceeding it.
BS EN ISO 14946:2001 states that the maximum load shall include the weight of the following:
 a) The number of persons at 75 kg each (for adults - where children are carried as part of   the crew a child’s mass shall be taken as 37.5 kg)
B) Basic equipment of (LH – 2.5)2, but not less than 10 kg,
 c) Stores and cargo (if any), dry provisions, consumable liquids and miscellaneous    equipment not  included in the light craft mass or in clause b above,
 d)  Consumable liquids (fresh water, fuel) in portable tanks filled to the maximum capacity, 
 e) Consumable liquids (fresh water, fuel) of permanently installed tanks filled to the   maximum capacity,
 f) A liferaft or dinghy when intended to be carried.

I find it surprising that the regs (same with cars) still specify a normally dressed average person as weighing 75kg.  Wish I did..........

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6 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I find it surprising that the regs (same with cars) still specify a normally dressed average person as weighing 75kg.  Wish I did..........

The ONS figures for 2010 state the average man in England was 5ft 9in (175.3cm) tall and weighed 13.16 stone (83.6kg). The average woman in England weighed 11 stone (70.2kg) and was 5ft 3in tall (161.6cm).

So I suppose if you assume an even mixture of sexes then the 75kg is not too far out.

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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The ONS figures for 2010 state the average man in England was 5ft 9in (175.3cm) tall and weighed 13.16 stone (83.6kg). The average woman in England weighed 11 stone (70.2kg) and was 5ft 3in tall (161.6cm).

So I suppose if you assume an even mixture of sexes then the 75kg is not too far out.

Maybe it's just me.  Best cut down on the food

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The ONS figures for 2010 state the average man in England was 5ft 9in (175.3cm) tall and weighed 13.16 stone (83.6kg). The average woman in England weighed 11 stone (70.2kg) and was 5ft 3in tall (161.6cm).

So I suppose if you assume an even mixture of sexes then the 75kg is not too far out.

Bloody Hell is that really true - how do they know?  Is this why everyone is buying widebeams..?

My dad was 13 stone in the 1960's and he was the biggest bloke on our street, by a long way.

I was watching Saturday Night and Sunday Morning the other day (1960) and what strikes you is just how thin everyone is.

When I was at school there was always one fat kid in the class, but just one.  I guess it's the skinny kids that stand out these days.

Ah well, at least when we leave the UE everyone will start losing weight..

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On 23/07/2017 at 14:30, mrsmelly said:

With a bit of luck they wont be imposing crap on us for much longer.

Since the red diesel issue arose from competition rules and the open market, and almost all of business wants to keep that, it is highly likely that all such rules will continue by one means or another (after that is just what the so-call Great Repeal Bill does). The only difference will be that the companies and other bodies representing people affected (eg IWA et al) will have no say in how the rules are formulated. Progress?

On 23/07/2017 at 21:59, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm not sure that this is correct - how can a shell builder do the stability tests with an un-ballasted shell, and before extra un-balanced weight of fitting out, furniture etc is fitted.

I believe it is a 'finished' test and consists of (amongst other tests) weight (certain number of people) standing on one side and the angle of heel being measured.

The latter is what happened for our recent new build (as I was told but did not actually witness)

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On 24/07/2017 at 21:39, Shropie Lad said:

Just a thought ! How much would it cost to have it done by a surveyor ?? A RCD etc.

you're missing the point.  The RCD is not just about a surveyor inspecting the boat and writing a document.  It is about the builder understanding the requirements and complying with all the relevant BS/EN/ISO standards.  The surveyor is only there to certify that you have complied, and then documenting it.  If you have not read and complied with the relevant standards from the start then there is little hope that the boat will comply.

Unfortunately if you haven't complied and you bring in a surveyor, you may be opening a can of worms when he advises you that he can't certify the boat and provides you with a long list of non-conformances.  His integrity and reputation is more important than pleasing one client.

Edited by Murflynn
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Just to expand on Murflynn's comments - the RCD is a 'whole build' requirement - like building a house, the building inspector has to come and check the foundations, comply, then check the foundation 'up to ground level', then check the walls up to 1st floor level, then check again at 2nd floor level, then check the roof joists comply, and so on and so on.

 

If you are having a surveyor to certify your RCD he needs to examine it at every stage to see what has been done under the floor, behind panels, in the roof, checked the wiring and fusing thru' the whole length of the boat, ensure the diesel tank has been 'pressure tested' (and marked as such) and so on and so on.

The RCD is NOT an 'on the day' test like a car MOT - for an RCD a surveyor would need to visit the build (probably) 6 times at various stages of the build.

 

I think you will save yourself a lot of aggravation by selling it as 'incomplete'  for the purchaser to buy and complete and sort out the RCD.

Suggest you keep the sale 'low-key' as you are (in reality) unable to sell it without paperwork up to the stage it is at when you sell - but better than a fatality resulting from something wrongly done in the boat and you 'signed it off' as compliant.

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19 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Since the red diesel issue arose from competition rules and the open market, and almost all of business wants to keep that, it is highly likely that all such rules will continue by one means or another (after that is just what the so-call Great Repeal Bill does). The only difference will be that the companies and other bodies representing people affected (eg IWA et al) will have no say in how the rules are formulated. Progress?

 

Just being out will be the biggest " progress " in my lifetime :D

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just to expand on Murflynn's comments - the RCD is a 'whole build' requirement - like building a house, the building inspector has to come and check the foundations, comply, then check the foundation 'up to ground level', then check the walls up to 1st floor level, then check again at 2nd floor level, then check the roof joists comply, and so on and so on.

 

If you are having a surveyor to certify your RCD he needs to examine it at every stage to see what has been done under the floor, behind panels, in the roof, checked the wiring and fusing thru' the whole length of the boat, ensure the diesel tank has been 'pressure tested' (and marked as such) and so on and so on.

The RCD is NOT an 'on the day' test like a car MOT - for an RCD a surveyor would need to visit the build (probably) 6 times at various stages of the build.

 

I think you will save yourself a lot of aggravation by selling it as 'incomplete'  for the purchaser to buy and complete and sort out the RCD.

Suggest you keep the sale 'low-key' as you are (in reality) unable to sell it without paperwork up to the stage it is at when you sell - but better than a fatality resulting from something wrongly done in the boat and you 'signed it off' as compliant.

You also need a Technical File (not handed over to the purchaser, but to be retained by the builder) which should include evidence that all the materials, fittings and appliances used or fitted to the boat 'as-sold' are certified to be CE compliant.  This is commonplace for a boatbuilding company who deals directly with major wholesalers who are familiar with the process, but not easy for a one-off project where stuff is bought in small amounts, usually from retail sources.  For example, do your soft furnishings (mattresses, upholstery, curtains) comply, particularly with regard to fire safety?  Can you prove it|?

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