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Mac of Cygnet

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I had a good reason to review the (barely used) byelaws today, and found something that might interest some thread participants.

Note: before you read it: this doesn't represent my opinion on the topic of the correct behavior of, nor interacting with, Volunteer Lockkeepers.  It's an exact copy/paste of the text of 1965 byelaw 23 from: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf

  1. The  master  of  any  vessel  approaching,  entering,  passing through  or  by  or  leaving  any  lock  or  movable  bridge  shall  cause his  vessel  to  be  navigated  at  such  speed  and  controlled  in  such manner  as  not  to  strike,  imperil,  damage,  obstruct  or  run  foul  of the lock or movable bridge or any part thereof of any other vessel approaching,  entering,  passing  through  or  by  or  leaving  the  lock or movable bridge.
  2. At  any  lock  or  movable  bridge  which  is  operated  by  staff provided  by  the  Board  for  that  purpose  the  lock-keeper,  bridge-tender,  or  other  authorised  officer  in  charge  shall  regulate  the vessels  approaching,  passing  through  and  leaving  such  lock  or movable  bridge  and  the  masters  of  all  vessels  in  the  vicinity  of such lock or movable bridge shall obey the directions of the said lock-keeper, bridge-tender or other authorised officer.
  3. Where a signal light is in operation to indicate when a lock or movable bridge is open for vessels to pass the master of a vessel approaching  such  lock  or  movable  bridge  shall  not  permit  his vessel  to  proceed  beyond  the  said  signal  light  unless  it  is showing  green  and  shall  not  permit  his  vessel  so  to  proceed whilst such light is showing red.
  4. In  this  Bye-law  the  expression  “lock”  includes  any  sluice  or weir.

 

My opinion: section (2) seems ok for a professional lock-keeper, but not for a volunteer

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4 minutes ago, Gordias said:

I had a good reason to review the (barely used) byelaws today, and found something that might interest some thread participants.

Note: before you read it: this doesn't represent my opinion on the topic of the correct behavior of, nor interacting with, Volunteer Lockkeepers.  It's an exact copy/paste of the text of 1965 byelaw 23 from: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf

  1. The  master  of  any  vessel  approaching,  entering,  passing through  or  by  or  leaving  any  lock  or  movable  bridge  shall  cause his  vessel  to  be  navigated  at  such  speed  and  controlled  in  such manner  as  not  to  strike,  imperil,  damage,  obstruct  or  run  foul  of the lock or movable bridge or any part thereof of any other vessel approaching,  entering,  passing  through  or  by  or  leaving  the  lock or movable bridge.
  2. At  any  lock  or  movable  bridge  which  is  operated  by  staff provided  by  the  Board  for  that  purpose  the  lock-keeper,  bridge-tender,  or  other  authorised  officer  in  charge  shall  regulate  the vessels  approaching,  passing  through  and  leaving  such  lock  or movable  bridge  and  the  masters  of  all  vessels  in  the  vicinity  of such lock or movable bridge shall obey the directions of the said lock-keeper, bridge-tender or other authorised officer.
  3. Where a signal light is in operation to indicate when a lock or movable bridge is open for vessels to pass the master of a vessel approaching  such  lock  or  movable  bridge  shall  not  permit  his vessel  to  proceed  beyond  the  said  signal  light  unless  it  is showing  green  and  shall  not  permit  his  vessel  so  to  proceed whilst such light is showing red.
  4. In  this  Bye-law  the  expression  “lock”  includes  any  sluice  or weir.

 

My opinion: section (2) seems ok for a professional lock-keeper, but not for a volunteer

Back on topic :-)
I agree with your opinion and I believe CRT do as well as they state somewhere that the volunteer should 'offer' assistance. The problems arise with the 'I'm in charge' volockie. 

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Good find and very interesting.

So 'staff' lock keepers ARE in charge of the lock, and skippers must do as they say.

Next, lets dissect the meaning of 'staff'. Is a CRT-trained volunteer 'staff'?

It would seem not if CaRT say they should only offer assistance etc.

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21 hours ago, Athy said:

Absolutely, yes. I don't know from which generation you come, but when I used to use the pub the landlord was an irascible ex-army sergeant called George Vardy. His main claim to fame was having banned the members of the fledgeling CAMRA group (which was founded in St. Albans) from the pub.

Almost the first time I came across CAMRA was in a pub in Tyttenhanger. Some wit had written on the gents wall "Watneys refreshes the prats that other beers can't reach". It was also the Christmas I got invited to a party at George Martin's house.

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18 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Almost the first time I came across CAMRA was in a pub in Tyttenhanger. Some wit had written on the gents wall "Watneys refreshes the prats that other beers can't reach". 

That's very good; it rivals "Robinson's, The Crime Of Manchester".

I had forgotten about Tyttenhanger. I left St. Albans in 1978 and have returned but rarely since.

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Three lock keepers on duty at Hurlston four locks today. One was a dead ringer for Bill Oddie. Excellent service. Pity that the Elsan there is bust and the tap has been removed at Barbridge together with the padlocked rubbish bins there.

Is this back on track enough or just a mild  and bitter whinge?

 

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4 hours ago, mross said:

If they are volunteers, they are not 'employed' by CaRT.  Ergo, they are not staff.  It makes me wonder if CaRT would be liable for any damage caused by their Volockies.

Yes they would.

They are trained by CRT and acting with their authority.

CRT confirmed in discussions with us that the actions of a volunteer should be treated no differently from those of a permanent member of their staff,.

(Similarly, or course, or of someone doing work for CRT on a contract basis).

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Sometimes it's not the velockies it's the impatient who run from one end of the lock to the paddles and then wind them up full, ignoring your request to ' leave the paddles to us' then when the boat accelerates at full tilt into the gates look at you all gone out.

i stayed in the lock ( it was our 10th that day) picking everything up, and checking stuff for about five minutes, then cleared the blades before going out of the lock. I left them to drop the paddles as they were so keen....

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6 hours ago, Peter-Bullfinch said:

... at Barbridge together with the padlocked rubbish bins there.

 

Hmmmm, last time we passed Barbridge rubbish point (in pissing rain) I found the bin enclosure padlocked. I tried to chuck the bag over the locked gate into the skip, but missed. Then I discovered that the correct access was from the opposite end, so having walked in I spent the next few minutes (in the pissing rain) picking up the rubbish from our split bag!

So maybe it's not as padlocked as you think!

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Just now, nicknorman said:

Hmmmm, last time we passed Barbridge rubbish point (in pissing rain) I found the bin enclosure padlocked. I tried to chuck the bag over the locked gate into the skip, but missed. Then I discovered that the correct access was from the opposite end, so having walked in I spent the next few minutes (in the pissing rain) picking up the rubbish from our split bag!

So maybe it's not as padlocked as you think!

Correct 

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My turn -
The lock keeper, volunteer or employee is responsible for the SAFE operation of the lock, and the management of the supply of water. there is no difference between a employee and a volunteer lock keeper, they both must have passed a test to ensure they are safe to operate locks.
The skipper is responsible for ensuring his boats safe passage. As defined in the by-laws, quoted before.
These two requirements actually impliy that they the lock keeper and the skipper have to communicate with each other, to achieve the two objectives of safe operation and no loss of water. As part of the C&RT training for a lock-keeper, they are instructed that the skipper is in charge of the vessel, so permission has to be obtained for them to act, unless safety issues intervene. The other way round is also true, so if a skipper is not operating the lock in a safe manor or a skipper is not conserving water, a lock keeper can instruct them to obey their directions, as also covered by the by-laws.

I think the response Mac got was spot on. I will guess that the manager has formally followed up the complain, with the personnel involved.

Having, many years ago,  had a fool of a friend, unexpectedly help me at a lock which end up with the boat sat on the cill, with a bent rudder, I have and will continue to shoot (etc.) people like Nick how unannounced, appear and start to help? Locks are dangerous places, and each boater has their own comfort zone for their method of operation, it is not up to some clever clogs to just come along and interrupt that process, without a bye your leave, from the person in charge of the boat, especially these days where there are so many uneducated novices about who are operating on the edges of their own safety envelopes.


You may have missed the fact we stick in that lock or some other safety concern which you do not have or know about, but we do know about. Don't be a know it all clever dick, that way lies the dark side, and danger, and bent rudder posts at least!
It is however helpful to ask people, if you can help, this is not normally an onerous process, and you can also advise that there are other possible modes of operation, which are safe and practical, in a nice friendly manor which we all use to be use to on the cut, rather than internet SHOUTING! Some of us know lots of things about lots of tasks sharing is good. 

My Atherstone wedge has a piece of string on it so you don't have to lean down to pick it up after use, you just pick it up as you go out of the lock.

Its against the by-laws to leave you boat in gear rubbing against the cill then gates when coming uphill (see before). In days of old Lock keepers would report boatmen for doing it and the company and thus the boatman would be fined.
It depends on which school of boatman taught you to boat, whether you do this or not. I was taught only Runcorn men did it, and it was a bad thing. I know one young boatman (interestingly a Runcorner) that got caught doing it and the company stopped him boating for 6 months and had him working in the yard for that time on reduced money, mind you he did loss his boat out of the lock and it went on to destroy a huge stack of toilets stacked against the cut edge. I would have loved to have been around to watch that!

--

Cheers Ian Mac

 

Edited by Ian Mac
hopefully altered to satisfy pedants!
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11 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Sometimes it's not the velockies it's the impatient who run from one end of the lock to the paddles and then wind them up full, ignoring your request to ' leave the paddles to us' then when the boat accelerates at full tilt into the gates look at you all gone out.

i stayed in the lock ( it was our 10th that day) picking everything up, and checking stuff for about five minutes, then cleared the blades before going out of the lock. I left them to drop the paddles as they were so keen....

It was a similar incident back in the early 90's which put my wife off steering the boat in locks for life.

I hadn't even fully closed one of the bottom gates before two people appeared and fully opened the paddles. The boat shot back into the bottom  gate,  and then rocketed forwards into the top gate, leaving my wife shaken and scared.

Some people just don't think of the impact (no pun intended) their actions can have on others.

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C&RT most definitely train their volunteer lock keepers that the person controlling the boat is the one that decides whether they require their assistance or not.

They are told to ensure they have agreed that with the steerer.  They are also charged with managing the effective use of water and the infrastructure, however if someone is bloody minded ........ simply says "No Thanks" or even cocks it up and rams a gate, then put simply they should not get involved.  Perhaps offer advice, but avoid confrontation. 

I know this because at the beginning of the year I applied to be a volunteer lock keeper on a well known flight of locks around the corner from me.

Despite assurance my details had been passed to a local team leader, I heard nothing for several weeks.  I chased it up and received an email from the said local volunteer co-ordinator saying that he had mailed me, but thought he might have got my address wrong (so how did he manage to mail me to tell me that?) He asked me to repeat the information I had previously supplied, and then booked me onto a meet and greet session for the wrong area.  At that I was asked to (again) fill out the forms I had now tackled twice, and asked for the third time which area I wanted to volunteer.

I heard nothing until June when I was invited to attend First Aid and H&S where I was asked which area I was volunteering at and had I done my Personal Accreditation. I asked what that was and learnt it involved being tested on the job after my induction at the flight I was to work at. My negative response was rewarded with a puzzled look and quickly brushed over.

Some weeks later another mail asked me if I was ready for my Personal Accreditation Assessment and where was it I was going to volunteer(!!!!!) Again I said where, and that I was still awaiting my induction on site.  The reply was an apology that they weren't taking any more there, but I could travel 15/20 miles to somewhere else.

I advised I couldn't, "so let's just call it a day".

I now get regular e-mails from the group with newsletters thanking me for my sterling efforts and commenting on how well I'm doing. The last one had a survey attached asking me for feedback on my experiences as a C&RT Volunteer.  I completed that with honesty and assertiveness, and ticked the box confirming I was prepared for them to contact me in order to expand on any of the points I raised.  Nobody has.

It saddens me to read forum members whitewashing Volockies and even sounding rude and aggressive about them, they are doing what they want to do to keep in touch with the world of Canals etc. They may no longer be able to afford a boat or have recently gone through a life changing set of circumstances and this is a coping mechanism for them.

More so I am saddened that C&RT seem to have overlooked that many of the people trying to volunteer with them may actually be their customers and that by messing them around they loose some of the best ambassadors they could possibly have.

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A very sad indictment but exactly how I suspected it might be. Just worse!

From the other end of the telescope I suspect organising volunteers for CRT is like herding cats. None of them has any obligation to do what they said they would or turn up when and where they said as they are not being paid, so I bet plenty don't.

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1 hour ago, mross said:

Threatening other members is against forum rules!

I realise that it's not something which you or I would ever do, but I took the remark as a pleasantry. Ian Mac, please clarify or modify.

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 I suspect organising volunteers for CRT is like herding cats.

Herding Cats is easier. The problem which C&RT are now attempting to get on top of is that volunteers, especially for jobs like lock keepers are employees, who receive no pay. Please remember there are at least three levels of volunteer within C&RT, those trained to do a specific role, those that are part of an organised group, such as a towpath adoption group, and those that attend a special volunteering event. C&RT have at last realised that they must do, as they do for volunteer roles, as they do for other employees, and conduct interviews, and have them on parole trial for a period of time before they formally take them on and train them, and release them on their customers.
This is one of the oldest problems with volunteers on canals and I suspect other past-times (no experience so cant say) It is the "so called nutter" who turns up to volunteer, I remember when attempting to restore the Ashton locks in the early 1970's one such person turned up, It took three other volunteers to cocoon him and stop him hurting us and himself. How do you say No to such people, especially as they think that you are there best friends. You have to be an open group and inclusive so you can recruit and further the cause, but you also have to keep everyone safe, you can't just turn away volunteers. Its a really hard problem. There are no easy solutions. There are many examples in the folkllore of canal restoration of such people arriving in a group, and the problems they have caused.

--

Cheers Ian Mac

 

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16 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

My turn -
The lock keeper, volunteer or employee is responsible for the SAFE operation of the lock, and the management of the supply of water. there is no difference between a employee and a volunteer lock keeper, they both must have passed a test to ensure they are safe to operate locks.
The skipper is responsible for ensuring his boats safe passage. As defined in the by-laws, quoted before.
These two requirements actually impliy that they the lock keeper and the skipper have to communicate with each other, to achieve the two objectives of safe operation and no loss of water. As part of the C&RT training for a lock-keeper, they are instructed that the skipper is in charge of the vessel, so permission has to be obtained for them to act, unless safety issues intervene. The other way round is also true, so if a skipper is not operating the lock in a safe manor or a skipper is not conserving water, a lock keeper can instruct them to obey their directions, as also covered by the by-laws.

I think the response Mac got was spot on. I will guess that the manager has formally followed up the complain, with the personnel involved.

Having, many years ago,  had a fool of a friend, unexpectedly help me at a lock which end up with the boat sat on the cill, with a bent rudder, I have and will continue to shoot (etc.) people like Nick how unannounced, appear and start to help? Locks are dangerous places, and each boater has their own comfort zone for their method of operation, it is not up to some clever clogs to just come along and interrupt that process, without a bye your leave, from the person in charge of the boat, especially these days where there are so many uneducated novices about who are operating on the edges of their own safety envelopes.

A WARNING - I will do, as I did to my mate, shoot (etc.),  if anyone touches the lock I am passing through unannounced.  - You have all been warned! Courts of law could be used as you are causing a serious health and safety risk.

You may have missed the fact we stick in that lock or some other safety concern which you do not have or know about, but we do know about. Don't be a know it all clever dick, that way lies the dark side, and danger, and bent rudder posts at least!
It is however helpful to ask people, if you can help, this is not normally an onerous process, and you can also advise that there are other possible modes of operation, which are safe and practical, in a nice friendly manor which we all use to be use to on the cut, rather than internet SHOUTING! Some of us know lots of things about lots of tasks sharing is good. 

My Atherstone wedge has a piece of string on it so you don't have to lean down to pick it up after use, you just pick it up as you go out of the lock.

Its against the by-laws to leave you boat in gear rubbing against the cill then gates when coming uphill (see before). In days of old Lock keepers would report boatmen for doing it and the company and thus the boatman would be fined.
It depends on which school of boatman taught you to boat, whether you do this or not. I was taught only Runcorn men did it, and it was a bad thing. I know one young boatman (interestingly a Runcorner) that got caught doing it and the company stopped him boating for 6 months and had him working in the yard for that time on reduced money, mind you he did loss his boat out of the lock and it went on to destroy a huge stack of toilets stacked against the cut edge. I would have loved to have been around to watch that!

--

Cheers Ian Mac

 

One thing I have noticed is that in general those most sensitive about foreign assistance at locks are single handlers. Folk such as ourselves who predominantly have crew, and are one moment the steerer, the next working the locks etc, are accustomed to teamwork with all its vagaries. I wonder if the sensitive single hander types are thus because they find the whole single handing thing quite a challenge and don't have remaining mental capacity to alter their procedure when outside help is available, or whether they are simply sociopaths looking for any excuse to avoid having to interact with other people.

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On 23/07/2017 at 19:00, nicknorman said:

One thing I have noticed is that in general those most sensitive about foreign assistance at locks are single handlers. Folk such as ourselves who predominantly have crew, and are one moment the steerer, the next working the locks etc, are accustomed to teamwork with all its vagaries. I wonder if the sensitive single hander types are thus because they find the whole single handing thing quite a challenge and don't have remaining mental capacity to alter their procedure when outside help is available, or whether they are simply sociopaths looking for any excuse to avoid having to interact with other people.

 

I'd say it is more to do with the single hander being only the person on the scene being personally and heavily invested in the wellbeing of the boat, unlike when there is crew.

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29 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

One thing I have noticed is that in general those most sensitive about foreign assistance at locks are single handlers. Folk such as ourselves who predominantly have crew, and are one moment the steerer, the next working the locks etc, are accustomed to teamwork with all its vagaries. I wonder if the sensitive single hander types are thus because they find the whole single handing thing quite a challenge and don't have remaining mental capacity to alter their procedure when outside help is available, or whether they are simply sociopaths looking for any excuse to avoid having to interact with other people.

As a singlehander I accept the charge in that I do it because I need and enjoy the solitude and time on my own. But like most solitary boating types, I enjoy the interaction at locks and with passers-by, so I don't really think I'm totally sociopathic. And I always welcome help at locks and don't think I've ever met another singlehander who hasn't! 

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7 hours ago, zenataomm said:

C&RT most definitely train their volunteer lock keepers that the person controlling the boat is the one that decides whether they require their assistance or not.

They are told to ensure they have agreed that with the steerer.  They are also charged with managing the effective use of water and the infrastructure, however if someone is bloody minded ........ simply says "No Thanks" or even cocks it up and rams a gate, then put simply they should not get involved.  Perhaps offer advice, but avoid confrontation. 

I know this because at the beginning of the year I applied to be a volunteer lock keeper on a well known flight of locks around the corner from me.

Despite assurance my details had been passed to a local team leader, I heard nothing for several weeks.  I chased it up and received an email from the said local volunteer co-ordinator saying that he had mailed me, but thought he might have got my address wrong (so how did he manage to mail me to tell me that?) He asked me to repeat the information I had previously supplied, and then booked me onto a meet and greet session for the wrong area.  At that I was asked to (again) fill out the forms I had now tackled twice, and asked for the third time which area I wanted to volunteer.

I heard nothing until June when I was invited to attend First Aid and H&S where I was asked which area I was volunteering at and had I done my Personal Accreditation. I asked what that was and learnt it involved being tested on the job after my induction at the flight I was to work at. My negative response was rewarded with a puzzled look and quickly brushed over.

Some weeks later another mail asked me if I was ready for my Personal Accreditation Assessment and where was it I was going to volunteer(!!!!!) Again I said where, and that I was still awaiting my induction on site.  The reply was an apology that they weren't taking any more there, but I could travel 15/20 miles to somewhere else.

I advised I couldn't, "so let's just call it a day".

I now get regular e-mails from the group with newsletters thanking me for my sterling efforts and commenting on how well I'm doing. The last one had a survey attached asking me for feedback on my experiences as a C&RT Volunteer.  I completed that with honesty and assertiveness, and ticked the box confirming I was prepared for them to contact me in order to expand on any of the points I raised.  Nobody has.

It saddens me to read forum members whitewashing Volockies and even sounding rude and aggressive about them, they are doing what they want to do to keep in touch with the world of Canals etc. They may no longer be able to afford a boat or have recently gone through a life changing set of circumstances and this is a coping mechanism for them.

More so I am saddened that C&RT seem to have overlooked that many of the people trying to volunteer with them may actually be their customers and that by messing them around they loose some of the best ambassadors they could possibly have.

Had a similar experience with our son trying to volunteer as a lock keeper over a summer when he was at university when he had no job.  We looked on the web site and they had vacancies at Atherstone, which is about 20 miles away, but I was happy to pay his petrol to get him out of the house doing something useful!  So he applied, and the response was that they would love to have him except there was no H&S course until September, it was then June.  I was gob smacked that they had not even thought about students volunteering over the summer, is seems so obvious, but they and he lost out on the opportunity due to this poor planning.

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41 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

One thing I have noticed is that in general those most sensitive about foreign assistance at locks are single handlers. Folk such as ourselves who predominantly have crew, and are one moment the steerer, the next working the locks etc, are accustomed to teamwork with all its vagaries. I wonder if the sensitive single hander types are thus because they find the whole single handing thing quite a challenge and don't have remaining mental capacity to alter their procedure when outside help is available, or whether they are simply sociopaths looking for any excuse to avoid having to interact with other people.

 I suggest it is because the single-hander has discovered that the persons providing the "foreign assistance" frequently don't understand teamwork, and that he/she can't afford to take the damage that assuming that they do, entails.

I enjoy your posts because they are knowledgeable and argued with a bold style, but on this topic you seem to me to be in a world of your own.

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