Is a Gardner 4LK a liability in a narrowboat?

[JayCee1969]

Hi I'm looking to buy a 60 foot plus narrow boat and have found three potentials for the short list. All have been on the market for a while and all have Gardner 4LK engines. My research seems to indicate that for a narrow boat, a 4LK is going to be a liability in two ways, and would really appreciate the views of those with more experience of the subject!

My concerns are:
1) Is it the wrong engine for the job, i.e. over powered and needing to work at a far higher rpm that a narrow boat would require of it?

2) It would be a maintenance nightmare, i.e. beyond simple oil/filter changes if anything else is needed the parts situation is difficult or nigh on impossible?

The boats I'm looking are great, but I'm not sure about how big a liability a 4LK is these days.

Thanks in advance for any advice and thoughts!!

JC

[Athy]

In answer to your second point, Gardner Parts still exist and do support quite a few of the Gardner engine ranges - such as the LW, which is what we have in our boat. But for some reason they don't support the 4LK.

I don't know to what extent the parts of the LK are shared with other Gardner ranges for which parts are still readily available. Perhaps the owners of these boats which are for sale will be able to give you better advice than I can.

[MtB]

Any vintage engine can be a liability, but I'd say the 4LK is inappropriate for a narrowboat in addition. 

Any individual installation may well run brilliantly for a few weeks, months, years or even decades, but when something goes wrong eventually, fixing it WILL be more awkward than if you had a BMC1500.

So how lucky are you feeling?!

[Neil2]

26 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Any vintage engine can be a liability, but I'd say the 4LK is inappropriate for a narrowboat in addition. 

Any individual installation may well run brilliantly for a few weeks, months, years or even decades, but when something goes wrong eventually, fixing it WILL be more awkward than if you had a BMC1500.

So how lucky are you feeling?!

Just wondering why you think it's an inappropriate engine for a boat?

[MtB]

On 10/07/2017 at 12:18, Neil2 said:

Just wondering why you think it's an inappropriate engine for a boat?

 

Four cylinders, grossly overpowered, unnecessarily long, sump casting prone to corroding away. 

Other than that its perfect!

[OldGoat]

Ray B - of Streethay fame had a 4LW (less power) in his boat and it worked a treat - good for blasting off the mud.....

[alan_fincher]

It's quite surprising that you have found three boats that otherwise presumably tick most of your boxes, but all have exactly this model engine. (I'm assuming one of them is not the converted River class butty?).

That of course may have something to do with the type of boat that interests you boats built by people like Mel Davies, Barry Hawkins, and maybe even Hudson are far more likely to have this kind of big shiny engine than many of the mainstream builders.

The fact that it is a Gardner, and people swoon over Gardners, is not an absolute guarantee of a good engine of course.  There has been a recent example of a 2 cylinder Gardner that was believed to be in good order breaking a crankshaft, and hence presenting its owners with a very large bill as a result.

You really need to know the history of a particular engine, and in particular if it has received the attentions of one of the specialists with that make, 9and when!)

1 hour ago, JayCee1969 said:

My concerns are:
1) Is it the wrong engine for the job, i.e. over powered and needing to work at a far higher rpm that a narrow boat would require of it?

No, this is just plain wrong.  If it is matched to a suitable gearbox and prop, (the latter may be a compromise on a modern boat though, due to clearances under the counter), then it is far more likely that it will never need to work at high RPM at all, and you may find cruising speed on many canals is little more than tick-over, and that tick-over is far too fast for many situations.

In general boat diesels are better being worked reasonably hard in many normal situations, and are no best served working, (or, more accurately, not really working,) for many hours at a time at near tick-over.  This tends to increase the risk of problems, not reduce it.

Bear in mind that many things in these engines is "times four", not "times two", so whether you need new pistons, new bearing shells, injectors serviced, (or whatever), material costs could be double that of a 2 cylinder engine of a similar type.

These boats will also need to have an unusually large engine room, unless space to actually work on the engine has been heavily compromised.  Whatever you buy, make sure the engine can come out through a removable bit of roof, (or by some other route), and was not simply put there, and a cabin then built over it!

I can't say whether the fact you say these 3 boats have all been on the market for a while is because potential buyers are put off by a 4 cylinder Gardner. These engines I believe have a much lower value than (say) a 2 cylinder model, and it is also possible that vendors or brokers are adding a "Gardner" factor to the price that is too much in the case of the engines the boats have.

[Athy]

8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

It's quite surprising that you have found three boats that otherwise presumably tick most of your boxes, but all have exactly this model engine. (I'm assuming one of them is not the converted River class butty?).

That of course may have something to do with the type of boat that interests you boats built by people like Mel Davis, Barry Hawkins, and maybe even Hudson are far more likely to have this kind of big shiny engine than many of the mainstream builders.

 

That could indeed be the case - though I can't remember hearing of Mel putting a 4 into any of his boats. I did see a Russell Newbery DM3 (the only one I've ever seen) which he was installing in a new boat, and a handsome thing it was too, though I haven't heard how it performed.

There's currently a Mel boat (Venice) with a Gardner for sale on AD, but it's a 2LW.

[Athy]

12 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

I can't say whether the fact you say these 3 boats have all been on the market for a while is because potential buyers are put off by a 4 cylinder Gardner. These engines I believe have a much lower value than (say) a 2 cylinder model, and it is also possible that vendors or brokers are adding a "Gardner" factor to the price that is too much in the case of the engines the boats have.

They could be put off by that, especially as (as aforementioned) parts for the LK are not available off the shelf from Gardner Parts - they do state that they will obtain "any part for any Gardner engine" but I assume that in this case these will be second-hand parts.

I think that for "Gardner factor" we could substitute "vintage engine factor": boats with almost any slow-revving old engine, e.g. RNs and Listers, surely tend to be offered at a price which reflects the lump's appeal and desirability. Exceptions might be very old and fairly obscure makes such as Seffle and Baudouin for which bits must be very hard to come by.

[alan_fincher]

13 minutes ago, Athy said:

That could indeed be the case - though I can't remember hearing of Mel putting a 4 into any of his boats. I did see a Russell Newbery DM3 (the only one I've ever seen) which he was installing in a new boat, and a handsome thing it was too, though I haven't heard how it performed.

There's currently a Mel boat (Venice) with a Gardner for sale on AD, but it's a 2LW.

Quite possibly the RN DM3 powered boat you refer to was "Lincoln" formerly owned by "Srads" & "Mrs Strads", once of this forum.  I do recall that that engine failed quite badly at one stage, and they were a long while sorting it out.

(Although possibly not as DM3s are not that uncommon -  I was initially offered a DM4 to go into Enceladus, had I bought that - in 50 feet of tug - No Way!)

There is a Barry Hawkins boat with a 4LK for sale here.

And a Cuttwater/"John Evans" one for sale here.

Not to mention Roe

[Athy]

18 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Quite possibly the RN DM3 powered boat you refer to was "Lincoln" formerly owned by "Srads" & "Mrs Strads", once of this forum.  I do recall that that engine failed quite badly at one stage, and they were a long while sorting it out.

(Although possibly not as DM3s are not that uncommon -  I was initially offered a DM4 to go into Enceladus, had I bought that - in 50 feet of tug - No Way!)



 

A bit of internetting suggests that 'Lincoln' is a Barry Hawkins build, if it's the 70-foot boat of that name. I think the DM3 was in the 53-ish foot tug which Mel took to the Crick show some seven or eight years ago.

A DM4 (which I have NEVER seen) in a 50-footer could be on the startling side of lively, but you wouldn't half have done a nifty turn at Alvecote basin!

[LEO]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

There has been a recent example of a 2 cylinder Gardner that was believed to be in good order breaking a crankshaft, and hence presenting its owners with a very large bill as a result.

 

Hi.

Any further details of this?

M

[Neil2]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Four cylinders, grossly overpowered, unnecessarily long, sump casting prone to corroding away. 

Other than that its perfect!

Surely the 4LK is one of the more "lightweight" engines in the Gardner stable, is it really overpowered?   I also believed it to be quite a compact unit, for a four banger though I don't know how its footprint compares to others.  

I have to admit I may have been looking at one of these boats the OP refers to so I have a vague interest in this discussion. 

 

[MtB]

Yes this is news to me too. I've not noticed any threads discussing a broken LW2 crankshaft.

A quick look in the Gardner department reveals nothing obvious on the subject.

[alan_fincher]

30 minutes ago, LEO said:

Hi.

Any further details of this?

M

 

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes this is news to me too. I've not noticed any threads discussing a broken LW2 crankshaft.

A quick look in the Gardner department reveals nothing obvious on the subject.

 

 

See:

Eclipse and Echoes Blog Post

and earlier posts in same blog about the same.

[MtB]

Blimey. 

Thanks Alan...

[Ampen Spekersohn]

I assume that one of the boats on the OP's shortlist is Kestrel. Nice looking boat, but 56HP? Wow, could be handy if you're regularly crossing the Wash or going up the tidal Severn.

Talking to a vintage engine expert, he said parts for the 4LK are very hard to come by.

I had two concerns about this boat: one, when put in gear, even on tickover, there was a mighty wash from the prop. I imagine that passing miles of moored boats would be a nightmare, constantly in and out of gear; two, no s/f stove in the saloon.

Plus the 4LK sounds more reminiscent of a vintage bus than a boat.

[JayCee1969]

Hi Ampen, yes your assumption is correct, one of them is Kestrel. I'm looking to get back into narrow boating after a 15 year gap. I did some research and really couldn't see the logic in a 4LK.  Your concerns about i) getting past moored boats at tick over speed and  ii) spares difficulty were exactly what I was thinking about! I envisaged glazed bores would also become an issue (?)

I posted because I was wondering if I was missing something or had flawed logic!

Also, I would like to say "thank you" to everyone for the replies and view-points... much appreciated!

JC
 

 

[Ampen Spekersohn]

However, on the plus side, Kestrel has oodles of mains power, courtesy of a Mecc Alte 7.5KVA alternator setup. So no problems putting your dirty socks through a hot wash, lol!

[MtB]

On 10/07/2017 at 23:19, Ampen Spekersohn said:

However, on the plus side, Kestrel has oodles of mains power, courtesy of a Mecc Alte 7.5KVA alternator setup. So no problems putting your dirty socks through a hot wash, lol!

 

A 7.kva alternator on the engine?

If so then at 50% alternator efficiency that is 20hp loading on the engine before it tries to push the boat along!

[Ampen Spekersohn]

E'en so, my lord! In fact, this ad says 8.8KVA: http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=509846

A sort of floating power station.

[LEO]

9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Blimey. 

Thanks Alan...

Seconded.

M

[noddyboater]

That engine/generator installation looks like the work of D.Williamson. He built a very similar 4LK based unit for a Norton Canes boat some years back, albeit with a smaller output. One thing worth considering was the alternator only produced power at set engine revs, the pulley was free wheeling when cruising. 

I wouldn't be worried about having an LK powered boat. Having stripped a few that haven't exactly had pampered lives I don't think they're any more susceptible to wear/damage than anything else. True, the sumps and other alloy parts can corrode- the elbows linking the heads especially- but parts are still around and even complete engines don't go for much money. Don't forget some marine versions were made, fitted with water cooled manifolds and g/boxes so they didn't all come out of buses!

 

[ditchcrawler]

On 10/07/2017 at 16:32, alan_fincher said:

 

 

 

See:

Eclipse and Echoes Blog Post

and earlier posts in same blog about the same.

looks broke to me

[ditchcrawler]

17 hours ago, Ampen Spekersohn said:

However, on the plus side, Kestrel has oodles of mains power, courtesy of a Mecc Alte 7.5KVA alternator setup. So no problems putting your dirty socks through a hot wash, lol!

Roger Millin had a similar set up on Albion.