Belling Cookers

[Petrogoozler]

Hi Everybody

 

I am new to forums and need some help and hope some keen gas safety engineer out there can provide some information to me.

The belling cooker on my boat is about 8 years old and is used frequently but we are not liveaboards so it does not get hammered.

Earlier this year both the oven and the grille were not working correctly and I called in a local engineer to service it.

The oven burnt with a yellow flame and the grille cut out after 8 minutes.

He recommended replacing both thermocouples. These I acquired direct from GDHA at some cost and the engineer called again to fit.  

The oven now worked perfectly (I think it really needed cleaning) but the grille cut out after 10 minutes. The engineer suggested that the new grille thermocouple was faulty and that I should request a replacement

GDHA exchanged immediately and I again arranged to meet the fitter some days later. The new thermocouple was fitted and like the previous as well as the original this had two spade connectors which fit to what I now know as a thermal cut out.  This new thermocouple failed again after 10 minutes. The fitter then isolated the thermal cut out by joining the spade connectors together. To move things further forward I engaged another gas safe engineer to replace the thermal cut out but the grille shut down after about 14 minutes. The spade connectors were again joined. Neither engineer could offer a real solution.

So far the above shenanigans have cost about £300 and Belling (GDHA) have offered to get their fitter to look at the problem the cost of which will be another £150.00. on balance a new cooker might be a cheaper option !

What I am trying to establish is :- The grille worked when the themal cut out was isolated: is it safe to operate in this condition ? also if it is not the thermocouple or thermal cut out that is faulty what part is causing this problem.

Sorry for the long miserable saga but hopefully someone might have an answer before I dig deeper into my pocket.

Thanks

Petrog

[mrsmelly]

Blimey. In short the thermo coupling is there for a reason and that is to cut the gas off if flame goes out!!!! At 8 years old I am afraid in this day and age a new cooker would probably have been cheaper. Bin it and put it down to experience. Just my view of course.

[MtB]

As mrsmelly says, the thermocouple keeps the gas ON while the flame is alight. 

The oven flame being yellow will have had nothing to do with the thermocouple as you suspect. Almost certainly due to the air port being blocked, starving the flame of combustion oxygen. 

Again, you are on the right track with the grill thermocouple. The thermocouple generates an electric current when hot from the burning flame, and an electromagnet holds a gas valve open. If the flame goes out, the thermocouple cools, the electric current stops and the gas valve closes cutting off the gas.

The two spade connections will go off to some other safety device, almost certainly an overheat protection thermostat. If the overheat protection thermostat gets too hot it will open the electrical circuit across those two spade connections, also causing the gas to be turned OFF just as though the flame had gone out. 

My guess is that the overheat protection thermostat is genuinely getting too hot after 8, 10 or 15 minutes and turning the gas OFF. Your next task is to follow the wires, find the overheat protection thermostat, and inspect it for obvious reasons for it getting too hot. I'm inclined to suspect it is working correctly, and turning the grill off because it is genuinely getting too hot. An air path to the grill being restricted with old burnt food perhaps? Or more likely, are you shutting the grill door when the grill is designed to be used with it open? This could be why the overheat protection thermostat is fitted in the first place! 

And one last point, I presume the grill has been correctly converted to run on Calor gas? A natural gas jet would cause this problem but generally be bloody obvious due to massive flames. 

[Iain_S]

15 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The two spade connections will go off to some other safety device, almost certainly an overheat protection thermostat.

Or a switch on the door to the grill.

[MtB]

On 09/07/2017 at 10:47, Iain_S said:

Or a switch on the door to the grill.

Yes good point. That would make more sense from a design point of view, but a less likely explanation for the symptoms the OP describes.

[Chewbacka]

That reminded me that Belling issued a safety some time ago about grill doors and overheating floors.  You may want to check your model number against this - http://www.belling.co.uk/safety-notice/

[MtB]

On 09/07/2017 at 11:42, Chewbacka said:

That reminded me that Belling issued a safety some time ago about grill doors and overheating floors.  You may want to check your model number against this - http://www.belling.co.uk/safety-notice/

 

An interesting possibility is the grill might actually be designed to auto-turn off after 10 or 15 minutes of continuous use. Grills account for the majority of cooker 'gas incidents'.

It's exactly the sort of designed interference in the way we use our appliances that manufacturers are tending to incorporate these days. The door interlock on a new Squirrel is another example.

[Petrogoozler]

Hi Gents

Thanks for your observations and I can confirm that we do use the grille with the front cover open as the handle on the grille tray would preclude our closing it during the operation of making toast or grilling bacon. Also the spade connectors have been correctly fitted to a cut out device called a Thermal cut out which was supplied by Belling as a spare part and installed by my fitter. This was isolated during the last engineers visit so as to ensure the grille worked for more than 15 minutes.

I have also checked to ensure than no food particles remain to interrupt the airflow and nothing has materially changed within the boat to affect any airflow. What is true however is that the front of the grille area is very hot,  so much so that the original control knobs needed changing as the plastic was distorting.

So this leaves me pondering if the grille is safe to use with the thermal cut out isolated or should I agree to get Belling involved directly at some cost and hopefully get some form of guarantee from them that the problem will be resolved.

In my view, what has been proven is that both the replacement thermocouple and the thermal cut out device fitted were working so it must be some other part within the cooker that is malfunctioning.

Guess unless you guys know differently another £150 quid will soon bite the dust.

 

Thanks all

P

[system 4-50]

I once had a cooker that required a temporary baffle to be fitted before each use of the grill. Have you lost your baffle?

[MtB]

On 09/07/2017 at 15:11, system 4-50 said:

I once had a cooker that required a temporary baffle to be fitted before each use of the grill. Have you lost your baffle?

 

Another good point. 

Dear OP,have you read the user manual in case there is something like this missing?

I'm a bit concerned you are thinking along the lines of a component being faulty. The evidence posted so far suggests it is something other than a faulty component. I'm still wondering if the grill has the wrong gas jet in it. Most cooker grills are pathetic in performance these days and the heat damage to the control knobs you mention suggests to me the grill is genuinely overheating. The task is to find out why.

The conventional way of investigating further is to carry out a 'gas rate' test. Measure the rate at which it is burning gas and compare this with the manufacturer's specification. With Calor, this is done with a very accurate scale to weigh the gas bottle before and after a measured period of running, then doing the arithmetic.

[MtB]

Has anyone checked the gas pressure in your system with the grill running? This is the most basic check to start with, and I assumed it had been done but now I see you haven't mentioned it.

[Chewbacka]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Has anyone checked the gas pressure in your system with the grill running? This is the most basic check to start with, and I assumed it had been done but now I see you haven't mentioned it.

It may be cheaper and quicker if the OP fits a new regulator as he probably doesn't have access to a manometer.  Then check the flame colour etc to see if it has improved.  Regulators are advised to be changed - from memory - every 10 years, so it may be due a change anyway.  Thinking about it, the gas guy that worked on the cooker should have checked pressures and for leaks etc, do you know if he did, or did he not do this as he only worked on the electrical bits???

[Petrogoozler]

Hi Everybody

Yes I can confirm the gas supply and pressure was checked with both the oven and grille running and adjusted after the first visit by my engineer. A new regulator and new pipes were run when we had the boat stretched in 2008. Also as we have been using the grille since new in 2008 I cannot believe we have the wrong size gas jets fitted. It really has seemed to work ok until fairly recently. I suppose I can understand it more if we were liveaboards and used the gas stove on a daily basis but this is not so at the moment as due to illness over the last few months we have been unable to use the boat very frequently until now. 

Thanks for all the ideas though

P

[Chewbacka]

The burner has had all the spiders cleaned out???

[Petrogoozler]

Yes when the burner is alight it works perfectly, spiders and all. Unfortunately 14 minutes is a bit tight for time when grilling bacon for breakfast. I do like it well done !

[WotEver]

6 hours ago, Petrogoozler said:

Unfortunately 14 minutes is a bit tight for time when grilling bacon for breakfast. I do like it well done !

Fry it. It'll be well done in less than half that time and you won't have a messy grill pan. 

[MtB]

AND you can do fried bread in the fat. YERM!!!!!

hang on though, I'm almost a vegetablearian....

[sherbert]

We had a problem with our oven and grill   on lighing they would burn for a few mins and then flicker and go out as if being subject to a wind  Then I read about regulators having a 10yr life and ours was ?? yrs old so I replaced it and problem cheaply solved Has yours been changed?

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, sherbert said:

Has yours been changed?

Yes, he said it has, earlier in the thread. 

Plus it's been checked for pressure and flow. 

[MtB]

On 10/07/2017 at 12:51, WotEver said:

Yes, he said it has, earlier in the thread. 

Plus it's been checked for pressure and flow. 

 

Changed in 2008 he said, sop nine years old now!

And whether it has really been checked for flow, I rather doubt. A scale to weigh the gas bottle with a resolution in fractions of a gram is needed, with FSD of say 20kg. Not cheap or easy to come by.

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

whether it has really been checked for flow, I rather doubt

I can only go on what OP wrote:

20 hours ago, Petrogoozler said:

I can confirm the gas supply and pressure was checked with both the oven and grille running and adjusted after the first visit by my engineer