Instant gas heater

[Tom Richmond]

Sure this question has been asked before, but just after a quick definitive answer. 

Is there an instant gas heater on the market which is room sealed, (therefore fully complying with BSS), but does not require 240v electricity. 

Morco seem to be the go to brand, and the suggestion (on many retailers websites) is to run a small dedicated inverter, but this seems silly for something which does not inherently require power. Surely there is a piezzo room sealed device somewhere???

I understand as well that there are various workarounds based on the BSS requirement of a direct replacement (mostly based on the "who's gonna know?" approach), but wish to go for the room sealed version in this instance. 

[Jon12345]

They use the 240v for the fan so you are able to have a 4/5" round flue. You can get balanced flued water heaters that have no fan and require no electric to run but they have big square through the wall flues and fitting them on a boat would be difficult and impractical. The Bss might also be a problem. Chaffoteaux & maury and main used to make these but I'm not sure if they still do.

Good luck

[W+T]

I have just fitted a Propex Malaga 5E, storage water heater of 13 l at i think 60 deg. can use both LPG and 240v for faster heating. 

Not sure fithe side exit flue will do on a NB though.

I was going to go with a Morco F-11 as you say it will need an inverter but at 30w is nothing and cheap to buy if you need one .

Only reason i didnt was due to the flue output as i wanted it to fit in a cruiser.

I agree on the room sealed wanted as to the old type. For the safety aspect i am not bothered about the money side of it when it comes to that.

 

forgot to say i looked for ages and not ,any room sealed water heaters not needing 240v. Shouldnt matter though, I didnt have any concerns when i was looking but for the fitting of them.

Edited July 6, 2017 by W+T

[Tom Richmond]

Hmmm, OK. that makes sense if the room sealed versions need a fan. 

Thanks all.

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Tom Richmond said:

Sure this question has been asked before, but just after a quick definitive answer. 

Is there an instant gas heater on the market which is room sealed, (therefore fully complying with BSS), but does not require 240v electricity. 

 

No.

But on the other hand, open flue water heaters fully comply with BSS.

[Tom Richmond]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No.

But on the other hand, open flue water heaters fully comply with BSS.

Not what my BSS examiner told me when he looked round the boat back in early spring. 

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No.

But on the other hand, open flue water heaters fully comply with BSS.

And are brilliant bits of kit.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Tom Richmond said:

Not what my BSS examiner told me when he looked round the boat back in early spring. 

 

It's must be the installation that fails, rather than the heater itself. (E.g. non-performing flue, inappropriate location, insufficient ventilation etc.)

Or can you/he cite the clause in the BSS it fails on please? I'd be most interested to hear as I think it is only PD54823 that mandates against open flue appliances. And PD54823 only applies to new boats and/or boats you are getting RCD'ed.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Tom Richmond]

Interesting. I can't quote anything specific, indeed he didn't specify at the time (and I didn't ask). 

Seemed that as a replacement to a like type of heater they are Ok, but as a new install they are not. 

I will go back to him and ask for more specifics. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Tom Richmond said:

Interesting. I can't quote anything specific, indeed he didn't specify at the time (and I didn't ask). 

Seemed that as a replacement to a like type of heater they are Ok, but as a new install they are not. 

I will go back to him and ask for more specifics. 

 

Yes do, please. I've not noticed anything in the BSS banning them. 

On the other hand, aren't you building a new boat anyway? Are you planning to RCD it? He may be assuming you are.

[cereal tiller]

29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No.

But on the other hand, open flue water heaters fully comply with BSS.

As do open Flue Hobs

[Tom Richmond]

email sent.

[MtB]

Just now, cereal tiller said:

As do open Flue Hobs

No such thing as an 'open flue hob'. Hobs are 'flueless'. A different thing. 

Your Paloma can be installed as 'flueless', or 'open flued' for example, but hobs have no flue at all.  

[Alan de Enfield]

39 minutes ago, Tom Richmond said:

Not what my BSS examiner told me when he looked round the boat back in early spring. 

That's where you made the mistake - listening to the examiner instead of reading the 'BSS Rules' for yourself.

Happens all the time.

[system 4-50]

Just passed my BSS (last Monday) with a new Morco D61B, not room sealed.

[Tom Richmond]

Quote:

"I have to recommend a room-sealed instant water heater to comply with gas installation and use regulations.

So its not the boat safety regulations its the British standard for installation of gas appliances on boats.

 

The boat safety scheme has no requirement for this and a non room sealed won't necessarily fail."

[Tom Richmond]

So, running with this... What is the difference between the non room sealed morcos? 

What is the difference between the 6l and 11l flow rates? Will be a boat with bath, shower and kitchen. Never use bath and shower at the same time, would be nice to be able to wash up while filling the bath though...

[MtB]

On 06/07/2017 at 22:04, Tom Richmond said:

Quote:

"I have to recommend a room-sealed instant water heater to comply with gas installation and use regulations.

So its not the boat safety regulations its the British standard for installation of gas appliances on boats.

 

 

Edit because I was unnecessarily harsh.

By "the British Standard for installation of gas appliances on boats" I'm guessing he means PD54823, which is not mandatory unless you are building a new boat or RCDing your boat.

So as your only concern according to your OP is to meet BSS (a wholly inadequate standard in my personal opinion), then you can fit one. If you decide you also want to meet PD54823, then he is right.

But you asked specifically about meeting BSS, and he has now changed his previous advice that A D61 would be a BSS fail. His advice is now to consider PD54823 as well, which mandates against them. My personal view is that an open flue Morco fitted and used in accordance with the instructions is perfectly safe, provided not installed in the bathroom or shower.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[MtB]

On 06/07/2017 at 22:09, Tom Richmond said:

So, running with this... What is the difference between the non room sealed morcos? 

What is the difference between the 6l and 11l flow rates? Will be a boat with bath, shower and kitchen. Never use bath and shower at the same time, would be nice to be able to wash up while filling the bath though...

The open flue heaters require no power supply, and they light within a second or two of turning a hot tap ON.

The room sealed heaters require 240Vac and although I've never worked on one, similar heaters take around five to ten seconds of water running before the burner lights, during which time you are pouring cold water down the drain. They also generally have a side exit flue with a large terminal. I think the D11 can have a vertical flue but it is not easily removable to go under bridges. 

[MtB]

On 06/07/2017 at 22:09, Tom Richmond said:

Will be a boat with bath, shower and kitchen. Never use bath and shower at the same time, would be nice to be able to wash up while filling the bath though...

 

Bear in mind even the D11 probably only delivers 11 litres a minute. Filling a bath will take AGES.

To wash up AND fill a bath at the same time I suggest you install a 100litre MEGAflo domestic hot water cylinder. 

I haven't noticed you mention filling a bath previously in this thread. Baths change everything!

[Tom Richmond]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Bear in mind even the D11 probably only delivers 11 litres a minute. Filling a bath will take AGES.

To wash up AND fill a bath at the same time I suggest you install a 100litre MEGAflo domestic hot water cylinder. 

I haven't noticed you mention filling a bath previously in this thread. Baths change everything!

I said it would be nice....

We will also have a 55 litre calorifier, heated by rayburn (and solar collector eventually, see other thread). Quite happy to end up in the situation that bath can only be filled from Cal, but also, taking ages to fill a bath isn't necessarily a problem. 

[MtB]

On 07/07/2017 at 08:48, Tom Richmond said:

I said it would be nice....

We will also have a 55 litre calorifier, heated by rayburn (and solar collector eventually, see other thread). Quite happy to end up in the situation that bath can only be filled from Cal, but also, taking ages to fill a bath isn't necessarily a problem. 

 

Having reviewed your OP we seem to have drifted well away from your original question, which turned out to be based on a fallacy.

 

This bit still needs addressing though.

On 06/07/2017 at 09:01, Tom Richmond said:

Morco seem to be the go to brand, and the suggestion (on many retailers websites) is to run a small dedicated inverter, but this seems silly for something which does not inherently require power. Surely there is a piezzo room sealed device somewhere???

I understand as well that there are various workarounds based on the BSS requirement of a direct replacement (mostly based on the "who's gonna know?" approach), but wish to go for the room sealed version in this instance. 

 

There are one or two household piezo-ignited permanent pilot room sealed water heaters around. Names such as the Main Multipoint, Main Severn and Main Medway spring to mind but not all might be piezo. They may be convertable to LPG but you'll need to check. They all have horizontal flues with large terminals on the outside though, this is unavoidable with room sealed but no fan. These might be acceptable as you are not building a narrowboat. One further hurdle is the balanced flue is usually designed for a minimum wall thickness of about 4", i.e. one housebrick.